Ki-84 vs P-51 engagemants 1945

[CHen10]

Olsen's F6F-5N was lost in the afternoon due to mechanical issues while on CAP near a destroyer, completely unrelated to the Ozuki engagement in the morning during which no Hellcats were shot down and none were damaged either.

The flight that became engaged over Ozuki in the morning was composed of fourteen regular F6F-5s. Ten of these engaged the Ki-84s. Four F6F-5P photo planes launched with them and photographed other airfields and were not involved in the dogfight.

Did the 47th sentai Ki-84s shoot down any of the F6Fs?

 

[Jerrybandit67]

Misidentification happened a lot and the Japanese reported they were P-51s and so I used what the Japanese said assuming they were correct. It's interesting to learn they were F6Fs.


I found this loss and so I assume this F6F was shot down by the Ki-84s of the 47th sentai

Crash Date YYMMDD	Aircraft Type	Bureau#	Squadron	From	Down	Area	Pilot	Pilot's Fate

450728

F6F-5N

78564

VF-16

USS RANDOLPH (CV-15)

SHIKOKU

EMPIRE

LT D.K. OLSEN

S

i remember there was an F4U-1D flown by chernoff shot down by ki-84 piloted by michiaki tojo

and a p-51K-10NT 44-12054 presumed shot down by japanese fighters

kooper clark bailed out after air engagement ,his mustang engine smoking bailed out, and went missing in hainan island

and a p-51D piloted by bill brown on 29 may 1945 (possibly shot down by fighters)

 

[RWGWAG]

Did the 47th sentai Ki-84s shoot down any of the F6Fs?

No, they didn't even score a single bullet hole in any of the F6Fs despite multiple firing runs.

 

[RWGWAG]

i remember there was an F4U-1D flown by chernoff shot down by ki-84 piloted by michiaki tojo

and a p-51K-10NT 44-12054 presumed shot down by japanese fighters

kooper clark bailed out after air engagement ,his mustang engine smoking bailed out, and went missing in hainan island

and a p-51D piloted by bill brown on 29 may 1945 (possibly shot down by fighters)

Yes that was Chernoff's first time being shot down on 4 May by a gorgeous Ki-84 of 101 Sentai (I think it was 101) before getting shot down again on 2 June and killed by Shiden-Kais of 343 Kokutai while on RESCAP.

VF-85 and VBF-85 would make a good case study, as would VF-88 for how new squadrons with less experience and less veterans from the same airframe performed in combat. VF-85 and VBF-85 were flying F4Us, and they few vets they had were former F6F guys. Consequently and despite multiple engagements they only produced one ace, Joe Draper Robbins, who added to his previous two kills flying F6Fs with VF-6 in early 1944. Robbins was one of Butch O'Hare's former students so he was "in the know" on tactics and a very good fighter pilot. He flew F8Fs after the war.

VF-85 or VBF-85 knew they lacked in skill and experience, and even wrote in their reports for the 2 June fight against 343 Kokutai and 3 June against 244 Sentai that the F4U pilots went off to try and be heroes and broke tactics while completely underestimating the Japanese pilots and aircraft.

VF-88, another new squadron with few veterans, also did not do fantastic on 15 August against A6Ms and J2Ms of 302 Kokutai.

Contrast their experiences with VF-16 against the 47th Sentai on 28 July. VF-16 had been flying Hellcats since 1943 and made an 1943-44 cruise on the USS Lexington with F6F-3s seeing lots of action. They had many vets in the squadron and in that engagement over Ozuki on 28 July with kills already under their belt in F6Fs and their leadership showed. The same goes for VF-6 who also fought A6Ms and J2Ms of 302 Kokutai on 15 August and suffered no losses against multiple claims. VF-6 had many short deployments in F6Fs in late 1943-early 1944 and one of the vets from that time, Herschel Pahl, was leading the VF-6 Hellcats on 15 August.

 

[Jerrybandit67]

13 may 1945 P-51K-10s of 348th FG engaged with 5 Ki-84s over hainan island two franks were shot down but koopers p-51 was observed smoking, bailed out MIA

 

[CHen10]

13 may 1945 P-51K-10s of 348th FG engaged with 5 Ki-84s over hainan island two franks were shot down but koopers p-51 was observed smoking, bailed out MIA

Is that P-51 loss from Joe Baugher's site? If Ki-84s were involved, combined with the fact this battle was over China, we would need to see which units were in China that used the Ki-84. Or we could try to find any Japanese victory claims on 13 May 1945 over Hainan.

 

[Jerrybandit67]

Is that P-51 loss from Joe Baugher's site? If Ki-84s were involved, combined with the fact this battle was over China, we would need to see which units were in China that used the Ki-84. Or we could try to find any Japanese victory claims on 13 May 1945 over Hainan.

it might as well be a engine failure. Although the 18 may 1945 ROC p-51D piloted by zhang dafei of 28th squadron was indeed shot down by a "japanese zero" over hengyang, xinyang

 

[CHen10]

13 may 1945 P-51K-10s of 348th FG engaged with 5 Ki-84s over hainan island two franks were shot down but koopers p-51 was observed smoking, bailed out MIA

Where does this information come from? I want to read more about it.

 

[CHen10]

it might as well be a engine failure. Although the 18 may 1945 ROC p-51D piloted by zhang dafei of 28th squadron was indeed shot down by a "japanese zero" over hengyang, xinyang

Working out the Japanese pilot and aircraft seems impossible for this

 

[Jerrybandit67]

Where does this information come from? I want to read more about it.

pacificwrecks.com

 

[Jerrybandit67]

i found a few more P-51C losses in china

44-11058 (by ki-43)
and 44-10807 by a zero
and 44-12394 by a6m2

 

[CHen10]

What are the dates of the losses?

 

[Jerrybandit67]

It can't be claimed by J2M3s because the 302 Kokutai which had J2M3s did not make any claims on July 8. They also fought over Atsugi and not Hyakurigahara so they can't shoot down Albert Sherren or Robert Carr since they were shot down at Hyakurigahara.


July 8, 1945
"Intercepting P-51 Fighters Over Atsugi Air Base"
Around 11:00, an alarm was issued saying "Enemy fighters invading from the Odawara area."
150 P-51 fighters attacked the Ibaraki, Chiba, and Keihin areas.
Four Raiden planes took off for an aerial evacuation.
During takeoff, they were attacked by P-51 fighters.
[Formation]
Four Raiden planes
First plane
Second plane
Third plane
Fourth plane: Sergeant Kaneda Masashi, hit and injured. Immediately after takeoff, they fired their machine guns at the P-51 formation, collided, hit and made an emergency landing.
[Damage]
Unknown
[Injured]
Sergeant Kaneda Masashi (11th Class Kohi), First Squadron "Raiden Squadron"

『第三〇二海軍航空隊 （１９）』

第三〇二海軍航空隊 （１９）　　昭和２０年７月第一飛行隊・第二分隊長：伊藤 進大尉〔三〇二空在隊中の戦果／撃墜５機、撃破２機〕、分隊士：栗坂伸三中尉、村上上…

ameblo.jp

i did find some sources about the 403 squadron shiden , kimura might be the one who shot down sherrens mustang, as he attacked the rear formation

well according to 506th FG site the US reported leaving the area they were attacked by jacks and lost a mustang

kind of fits the profile

 

[Jerrybandit67]

unfortunately i was unable to find any records of a p-51D shot down by the Ki-84 hayate

 

[Jerrybandit67]

found another zero kill
May 25, 1945
A P51D (registration number 44-63328, belonging to the 78th Squadron, 18th Fighter Group) crashed.
It was shot down by a Zero fighter while attacking Matsudo Airfield
pilot Robert L. Williams was captured

 

[Jerrybandit67]

Yes

On 8 July 1945 16 N1K1s of the Tsukuba Kokutai fought against 20 P-51Ds near Tokyo. The N1K1s claimed three P-51s shot down and two P-51s were lost after they were shot down near Hyakurigahara naval base

I have one for the N1K2 as well. On 12 April 1945 Yokosuka Kokutai N1K2s and 302nd Kokutai J2Ms as well as IJAAF force aircraft intercepted B-29s and P-51Ds over Tokyo. Famous ace Kaneyoshi Muto who was flying an N1K2 of the Yokosuka kokutai (probably with the tail code with the backwards "E" and 104) was credited with a P-51. His victim was probably the P-51 flown by Gordon A Christoe who was last seen being attacked by an enemy fighter.

wasnt christoe shot down by anti aircraft?
as reported on some sources

although some books mentioned christoe was killed in a dogfight 常盤台住民、驚く。〜空からP-51Dが降ってきた〜 - 板橋ハ晴天ナリ。
One of the witnesses, Kuriki, commander of the 4th division of the Itabashi Civil Defense Corps, said: "Around 11:20 a formation of about 20 planes were engaged in aerial combat with friendly forces in the sky when suddenly we heard the sound of a steep dive and they plummeted vertically from about 1,000 meters above the ground. It was a feeling that all the frustration we had been building up for days was instantly released. The best thing was that there was no damage in the back fields."

 

[CHen10]

wasnt christoe shot down by anti aircraft?
as reported on some sources

although some books mentioned christoe was killed in a dogfight 常盤台住民、驚く。〜空からP-51Dが降ってきた〜 - 板橋ハ晴天ナリ。
One of the witnesses, Kuriki, commander of the 4th division of the Itabashi Civil Defense Corps, said: "Around 11:20 a formation of about 20 planes were engaged in aerial combat with friendly forces in the sky when suddenly we heard the sound of a steep dive and they plummeted vertically from about 1,000 meters above the ground. It was a feeling that all the frustration we had been building up for days was instantly released. The best thing was that there was no damage in the back fields."

Christoe's MACR says he was last seen being attacked by an enemy fighter. It's available online

 

[Jerrybandit67]

Christoe's MACR says he was last seen being attacked by an enemy fighter. It's available online

yea it does have written he was attacked by a Tojo (ki-84), but yokosuka kokutai (N1K2's) has the claims regarding the engagement

on the other hand i found an interesting engagement where a P-51D piloted by Robert L. Williams. was reported shot down by a zero at matsudo airfieldd.