Ki44-II Shoki 47th Sentai (Sakamoto) wing guns

[SirFrancis]

Hey guys,
I've got an old Hasegawa kit and it has 2 versions, a version for 85th Sentai has wing guns already in place (protruding). The other version 47th Sentai it requires guns cut off (recessed). I'm wondering what guns these were as info I've found says they should be 50cal for both versions. (Otsu)

I forgot to cut them off and now it will be fiddly.

Ok thanks
Francis

 

[Shinpachi]

No gun version in the wing of the 47th sentai was provided for ramming B-29s as the Shinten Seikutai (震天制空隊 - Shinten Air Control Unit).

 

[Wurger]

 

[SaparotRob]

No gun version in the wing of the 47th sentai was provided for ramming B-29s as the Shinten Seikutai (震天制空隊 - Shinten Air Control Unit).

That is pretty badass.

 

[SirFrancis]

No gun version in the wing of the 47th sentai was provided for ramming B-29s as the Shinten Seikutai (震天制空隊 - Shinten Air Control Unit).

I recall reading somewhere that they used their ammo up first and then attempted to ram, but this was not very successful.

So if they removed the wing guns, it would just leave the open ports, unless they patched them like the spitfires?

I seem to be striking kits with deleted wing guns lately! Like the Ha1109 Tripala a while back ,,,, grrrr I like wing guns…lol

 

[Shinpachi]

According to Wikipedia, they used aged airframes with no all(4) guns. Pilots were requested to be skillful enough to ram and bailout without failure to fly again.

Ki-44-II with no wing guns and no hole panels

 

[SirFrancis]

According to Wikipedia, they used aged airframes with no all(4) guns. Pilots were requested to be skillful enough to ram and bailout without failure to fly again.

Ki-44-II with no wing guns and no hole panels
View attachment 752519

Shinpachi, you're killing me! .......so no guns? ......... I'm confused by the tail markings on the kit Ki44 for 47th Sentai. . It's not the jagged emblems blue, red or yellow for 1st 2nd and 3rd Chutai. The kit just has that tail painted all over red.

Hmm also....thinking out loud...... technically I could still add some gun muzzle stains as they would have been used prior to removal.... lol.

Just found out that emblem in the centre fuselage was the 'ramming unit' emblem......pretty cool actually.

 

[SirFrancis]

I just found this drawing which states it is also Sakamoto's kite in early 1945- showing 1st Chutai. He apparently rammed a B-29 with this. So makes me wonder if Hasegawa kit kite stated as late 44, was also 1st Chutai but with an odd tail marking? Unless there coincidentally are two pilots named Sakamoto in 47 Sentai!

Now where did Hasegawa get that red tail design?............


Or........ is it that the Hasegawa version wasn't from any Chutai.....it was a separate special unit with donated aircraft from all the chutai........hmmmm

Ahhh....look at the tail number....both have 32!!!

 

[Greg Boeser]

Cool.

 

[SirFrancis]

The plot thickens.............look what I found..........no wonder it was so confusing...........Hasegawa !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! wrong tail design.......

From..

 

[Shinpachi]

Isamu Sakamoto confirmed his Ki-44 profile as believed in the postwar.
Historian's research and opinion is always a theory which involves misidentification IMO.

Source: 陸軍二式戦闘機 鍾馗 塗装図

Isamu Sakamoto in 1981

Source: NHK interview in 1981

 

[SirFrancis]

Isamu Sakamoto confirmed his Ki-44 profile as believed in the postwar.
Historian's research and opinion is always a theory which involves misidentification IMO.

View attachment 752547
Source: 陸軍二式戦闘機 鍾馗 塗装図

Isamu Sakamoto in 1981
View attachment 752546
Source: NHK interview in 1981

Hey Shinpachi,

That's a great link, so many Ki44 profiles. I saw the Hasegawa profile, but there is no info about it.

Interesting....the plot thickens again.....so what is this photo mentioned in the article that shows the red rudder and 'blue' flash of 1st chutai? Have you seen this photo they mention in Bunrindo's book? I haven't seen it. But they seemed convinced.

Where is Sakamoto's account of the profile? Why would the Osprey profilers change it for no reason?

Ahhh so many questions.............

 

[Shinpachi]

There is no difficult story about the profile as it is enthusiasts' common knowledge since the war ended.
If I may add, 47th sentai did not use blue color sentai marking for the ki-44 but Ki-84.
Ki-84s were deployed after January 1945 as Isamu Sakamoto lost his Ki-44 on January 27, 1945.

Ki-84 of 47th sentai for Asahi unit of Ki-84

Source: 陸軍四式戦闘機 疾風 塗装図

 

[Shinpachi]

This is how Isamu Sakamoto looked like as a member of Shinten Seikutai in November, 1944.

Source: Senshi Sosho

 

[Shinpachi]

For the future discussion, if necessary -

Ronnie Olsthoorn's Ki-44

47th sentai after January 1945

1st unit

3rd unit

2nd and 3rd units

Source: 陸軍四式戦闘機 疾風 塗装図

 

[SirFrancis]

Hey Shinpachi,

Interesting - so 2nd Chutai had red flash tail insignia. 3rd Chutai had yellow. So if not blue what colour did 1st Chutai have?
This photo from the profiles link - caption says it is 1st Chutai... it appears as a white flash with yellow centres....the profiler has drawn it as that.

The Osprey article about the Ki 44 photo they found said they 'thought' the tail flash was blue but weren't positive as it was b&w....so they went with the assumption that it was blue for 1st Chutai.

So if 47th Sentai had blue tail emblems on their Ki84's for 1st Chutai .....what colour tails were the Ki44s? Why would a Chutai change the colour of its tail emblem when they update to a new fighter (Ki84).?

Apologies for the questions......I am still somewhat confused........but it's all very interesting...I enjoy the research aspect of the hobby.

 

[Shinpachi]

Tail insignia color for the 1st and 2nd unit (chutai or hikotai formaly) of Ki-44 was red.
This would be why blue color was adopted for Ki-84.

If the insignia color of Ronnie Olsthoorn's Ki-44 was yellow, not blue, that would explain everything well as the original color scheme of Isamu Sakamoto's Ki-44 before he joined the ramming attacker unit in November 1944 IMO.

 

[SirFrancis]

Tail insignia color for the 1st and 2nd unit (chutai or hikotai formaly) of Ki-44 was red.
This would be why blue color was adopted for Ki-84.

If the insignia color of Ronnie Olsthoorn's Ki-44 was yellow, not blue, that would explain everything well as the original color scheme of Isamu Sakamoto's Ki-44 before he joined the ramming attacker unit in November 1944 IMO.

Now Olsthoorn's photo apparently has the ramming unit 'yamada' drum emblem on the fuselage........so it's the same aircraft, which brings us back to what the tail insignia was.

Would like to find that photo............

 

[Shinpachi]

I borrowed the book from a library nearby.
The caption says -

"Type 2 fighter (Ki-44) of Shinten Air Control Unit parked at the west corner of the reserve area. The building in the rear left is the sentai headquarters. This no. 32 airframe is the initial production of Type 2-ko or otsu and, originally, belonged to Asahi unit (1st chutai). The strange stain on the rudder is unknown. As Shinten marking can be seen on the side but the gunsight is not removed yet, this airframe is not completed as the air-to-air special attack plane. This photo looks taken from mid-to-late January 1945."

Asahi unit (chutai) tail insignia is in blue but original 1st chutai's insignia was in red. The photo looks red.

Front cover

Photo of question

 

[Wurger]