Known aerodynamicists?

Dimlee · Apr 5, 2025

My evidence about Antonov as aerodynamist is "anecdotal", from the memoirs of people who worked with him. Allegedly, he was focused on aerodynamics. He started his career in the gliders design, that probably explains.
An-72 was developed by Orlov as the chief designer. Not sure if Antonov was involved directly.
I still love this bird. Have been on board as the passenger several times, when one or two were operated by Motor Sich. Short take off, fast climb, it was cool and unusual after the flights on large passenger jets.

fannum · Apr 5, 2025

Don't forget Igor Sikorsky

bf109xxl · Apr 5, 2025

fannum said:
Don't forget Igor Sikorsky

What exactly did he contribute to aerodynamics? As far as I know, he was a talented engineer without a deep knowledge of theory, often acting using trial and error method.

fannum · Apr 5, 2025

He designed some of best early a/c, with some advanced aero thinking. Look up Ilya Muromets and all his WWI era designs that set all sorts of records, overlooked in the West, and ignored by czar and communists as he was Ukranian. Forced Revolution to flee to US, his seaplanes set the standards in 20s and 30s.

I feel 'trial and error' serious misstates his research, especially in helo control and stability.

bf109xxl · Apr 5, 2025

fannum said:
He designed some of best early a/c, with some advanced aero thinking.

It's hard to consider this to be a "contribution to aerodynamics".

fannum said:
Look up Ilya Muromets and all his WWI era designs that set all sorts of records, overlooked in the West, and ignored by czar and communists as he was Ukranian.

"Ilya Muromets" had a rather archaic design, which had already become obsolete by 1917. Aerodynamically, there was nothing new in the IM. And I doubt very much that Igor Ivanovich Sikorsky himself considered himself a Ukrainian. There is no doubt about his Ukrainian origin, but in his views he was an absolute Russian monarchist who did not consider Ukrainians a separate nation.
"Ignored by the Czar" how? Actually, tsar was very much interested - he had already in July 1913 inspected the "Russian Vityaz", the predecessor of IM, moreover, Sikorsky was almost his personal friend. The establishment of the Squadron of Air Ships and serial production of the IM in technologically backward Russia can hardly be called "ignoring" either.

fannum said:
Forced Revolution to flee to US, his seaplanes set the standards in 20s and 30s.

This is all trivial information. What specific contributions did he make to aerodynamics?

fannum said:
I feel 'trial and error' serious misstates his research, especially in helo control and stability.

He redesigned his first helicopters twenty times so that they could finally fly not only sideways and backwards, but also forward. It was a typical example of engineering by trial and error.

Aeroweanie · Apr 6, 2025

Here is Igor Sikorsky with Czar Nicholas II, inspecting The Grand:

fannum · Apr 6, 2025

bf109xxl said:
It's hard to consider this to be a "contribution to aerodynamics".

"Ilya Muromets" had a rather archaic design, which had already become obsolete by 1917. Aerodynamically, there was nothing new in the IM. And I doubt very much that Igor Ivanovich Sikorsky himself considered himself a Ukrainian. There is no doubt about his Ukrainian origin, but in his views he was an absolute Russian monarchist who did not consider Ukrainians a separate nation.
"Ignored by the Czar" how? Actually, tsar was very much interested - he had already in July 1913 inspected the "Russian Vityaz", the predecessor of IM, moreover, Sikorsky was almost his personal friend. The establishment of the Squadron of Air Ships and serial production of the IM in technologically backward Russia can hardly be called "ignoring" either.

This is all trivial information. What specific contributions did he make to aerodynamics?

He redesigned his first helicopters twenty times so that they could finally fly not only sideways and backwards, but also forward. It was a typical example of engineering by trial and error.

We have different opinions on several things, especially 'archaic' in a period of accelerated development, and I'd compare 20 trials to success pretty amazing compared to any others in the then unknown field.
Thanks for the input. I'll let the forum make their judgements.

bf109xxl · Apr 6, 2025

fannum said:
We have different opinions on several things, especially 'archaic' in a period of accelerated development,

The IM's shortcomings and in particular its poor aerodynamics were criticized by the Russians themselves already in 1916.

fannum said:
and I'd compare 20 trials to success pretty amazing compared to any others in the then unknown field.

No one disputes Sikorsky's engineering merits. But we are talking about aerodynamics. And by the early 1940s, helicopters were flying successfully in Germany and even (less successfully) in the USSR.

fannum said:
Thanks for the input. I'll let the forum make their judgements.

Forum cannot be considered as a criterion of truth.

GrauGeist · Apr 6, 2025

Sikorsky's R-4 and R-6 were used operationally by the U.S. military during WWII.

The Soviets did not have an operational helicopter during WWII, though they did have an autogyro (Kamov A-7).

fannum · Apr 6, 2025

bf109xxl said:
Forum cannot be considered as a criterion of truth.

Thank you, and your statements make that abundantly clear.

We're an enthusiast forum, full of supporters and detractors.

Study and debate are the path to knowledge, and it's up to us to absorb data, fact check, weigh and make reasoned decisions.

Parliamentary discourse vs political pronouncements!

Dimlee · Apr 7, 2025

Aeroweanie said:
Here is Igor Sikorsky with Czar Nicholas II, inspecting The Grand: View attachment 826019

I love this photo. Most probably, it was made at the same time and place. His Majesty struggled with the ladder.

Dimlee · Apr 7, 2025

Since we already mentioned Sikorsky, what about other Russian Empire emigres? Did anyone contribute to aerodynamics?
Seversky, Kartvelishvili (Kartveli), Gregorishvili (Gregor), Stroukoff?

GrauGeist · Apr 7, 2025

Dimlee said:
Since we already mentioned Sikorsky, what about other Russian Empire emigres? Did anyone contribute to aerodynamics?
Seversky, Kartvelishvili (Kartveli), Gregorishvili (Gregor), Stroukoff?

I mentioned Kartveli a few pages back.

bf109xxl · Apr 20, 2025

Dimlee said:
Since we already mentioned Sikorsky, what about other Russian Empire emigres?

I think we are not done with Soviet aerodynamicists yet. Mikhail Mil being chief designer was an aerodynamicist who made a significant contribution to helicopter aerodynamics. He developed the basics of rotorcraft aerodynamics in the 1930s at TsAGI. Own aerodynamic school (Yur'yev, Bratukhin, Izakson, Mil) and practical helicopter development experiences (Cheremukhin, Izakson, Bratukhin) - gyroplanes we consider separately - allowed the Soviet Union to establish the production of quite successful helicopters relatively quickly, despite all the post-war difficulties.
In the USSR, the basic problem of helicopter development was the lack of interest of the customer - the Air Force and Navy - rather than technical or technological. The military had no idea of the helicopter's capabilities - until the Americans demonstrated them clearly. The Soviets were constantly looking back at American designs (not counting direct copying), believing that if the Americans did or did not do something, it was for good reason.

Known aerodynamicists?

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