parsifal
Colonel
Have attached two articles by Robert Lundgren one concerning the details of the action fought, and the second is a detailed damage assessment for Kirishima,
Kongo and Haruna
- Thread starter renrich
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It is true that South Dakota suffered numerous failures; radar, gun directors, radar plot and radios were shot out. Radio communication was out because all of the ship's antennas were shot off! But the main problem, electrical failure, was self induced and this left her main battery silent.
Until my brother came by, I had a book that listed the Japanese order of battle. So, from hazy recall I think there were 26 IJN ships in the waters around Guadalcanal that night. This includes some Marus on a mission to land troops on the island plus their escorts. In the immediate neighborhood of the battle there were:
Battle Crusier (I contend) Kirishima a 30 knot ship armed with 8x14inch, 16x6inch and 8x5inch guns
Heavy Cruiser Atago a 35 knot ship armed with 10x8inch guns
Heavy Cruiser Takao a 35 knot ship armed with 10x8inch guns
Light Cruiser Nagara a 36 knot ship armed with 7x5.5inch guns
Light Cruiser Sendai a 35 knot ship armed with 7x5.5inch guns
Plus seven destroyers
I point this out because this battle is often described as being between the Kirishima and the South Dakota or the Kirishima and the Washington when in fact there were 12 IJN vessels in the area.
So, as for Kirishima being outnumbered, I say false. As for being outgunned, that is a judgement call, does the many guns of the Japanese fleet rule or does the throw weight of the 16 inch rifles?
As for the contention that the bombardment group was hampered by being loaded out with HE shells, I agree. Of the heavy hits received by South Dakota, two were HE, two were Incendiary and only one was AP. The AP round struck the barbette of number 3 turret, misaligning the roller table and making the turret hard to train. South Dakota was also hit by what appears to be the cap head of a 14 inch AP round, the projectile having disassembled upon hitting the water.
You state Kirishima came close to sinking South Dakota. That got me wondering how good the shooting of the Kirishima was the night of her loss? According to the South Dakota damage assessment posted at USS South Dakota Damage Analysis
the South Dakota was hit 27 times. Some of the hits are known to have come from the heavy cruisers, the Kirishima did not have 8 inch guns and South Dakota took five 8inch AP rounds and 2 8inch HE rounds. Tallied up, as best as I could (the source of some of the hits is unclear), it looks like the Kirishima was responsible for 14 or 15 of the hits, a little over half. You are welcome to make your own tally if you wish. So, this was an engagement between the South Dakota, the Kirishima, some cruisers and maybe IJN destoryers.
As for the South Dakota, she emerged pretty beat up but in no sense close to sinking and still making full power. One interesting thing was the hull seams that opened up well below where hits impacted her side armor. This I take to be the result of having side armor far inside of the outer hull. Another fact I came across was that the Washington was shooting nearly over the South Dakota to engage the Kirishima. Luckily, no holes in the other side of South Dakota.
parsifal
Colonel
The numbers are correct, however I suggest you have a look at Lundgrens article on the action. These ships did not fight as a coherent co-ordinated unit. At best, the Battleships were engaged by the BC and the two CAs, although I do concede the light forces of the Japanese fired a large number of Long lances at the two USN battlewagons.
She was outnumbered for most of the battle that she engaged the battle ships. the Takao and Atago turned away and were with drawing from 0100, The two Destroyer Divisions, less those that had been disabled, were already retreating by then. Kirishima received her most damaging hits 0107 and later, ,so it is more true to say she was outnumbered and outgunned than to claim otherwise.
Obviously the lighter guns have some impact, as the preceding engagement with Hiei demonstrates. However, Kirishimas 14in batteries were hard pressed to penetrate the citadels of the two US Battleships, whilst the 16 in batteries of the US ships were designed to deal with ships of the Kirishima class (ie ships designed to withstand hits from a 14" or lighter, at ranges of about 18000 yards or greater (from memory)).
However, despite that disadavantage, as well as the disavantages of being a dispersed force, caught with the wrong ammunition loadout, Kirishima for a time did achieve the upper hand over the American ships. If it had been just one Battlship/cruiser versus one battleship (with say one or 2 US CAs to help out), I think the result would have been a japanese victory. What killed the Kirishima was that she did not relaize, until too late, that she was faced by two BBs each of superior size, protection and power to her own. But its a long way from concededing the superior power of the American ships, to claiming the Kirishima was inherently weak just on the basis of what bhappened to her in her final action.
As for the contention that the bombardment group was hampered by being loaded out with HE shells, I agree. Of the heavy hits received by South Dakota, two were HE, two were Incendiary and only one was AP. The AP round struck the barbette of number 3 turret, misaligning the roller table and making the turret hard to train. South Dakota was also hit by what appears to be the cap head of a 14 inch AP round, the projectile having disassembled upon hitting the water.
When I claim she came close to sinking her, I conceded I am extrapolating a bit. What would have happened if Washington had not been there to pull Daks chestnuts out of the fire? I think the Japanese would have sunki her
.
This is a good summary. As far as washington shoting over or near the Dak, maybe for a short while, but Dak basically stopped in the water for some timeand was forced to turn away, as did the Kirishima. Again I would recommend Lundgreens article, which I have attached in a previous post.
Okay, some more about this battle.
Early in the war the Japanese were rightly known as the masters of the night. What made them particularly deadly was their ability to inflict a vicious torpedo attack. US naval forces around Guadalcanal, on the other hand, continually had friendly fire problems.
It perhaps made perfect sense for the IJN to divide their forces in the way they did on the night of November 14-15. In the dark it obviously would have been easier to command and maneuver small forces rather than a large one. Later in the war when the US fielded large forces, these fleets had to learn to navigate and maneuver as a unit. So, with experience, this is possible.
The fact that the separate Japanese surface formations were not in position to screen Kirishima, when she came under fire from the Washington, I suggest, does not mean Kirishima was outnumbered, but only that the Washington was able to defeat Kirishima in detail.
Since you recommend Lundgreen's account of the battle, view the plot on page 17, noticing the location of the SD and Atago at 0103. The SD was broadside to the Atago when Atago launched an 8 torpedo spread at 3000 yards. None hit. The fact that neither the Washington nor SD suffered torpedo damage in this battle is nothing short of miraculous. It just wasn't going to happen that night. But, had the IJN smashed into the US formation the way Callaghan led his cruiser fleet the previous night, I'm thinking the outcome could have been completely different. I believe it was DD O'Bannon that engaged the Hiei at a range of less than 100 feet. So, I contend the IJN sent sufficient vessels down the slot to even contend with the unexpected power of the US forces present.
Washington opened fire with her main battery at 0100 and then ceased fire at 0102 because the cruisers in the van of Kirishima stopped illuminating SD. So, how much was Washington depending on radar? At 0104 Washington's main battery resumed fire. By 0105 SD is sailing right through the Washington's sights. At 0107 the SD is still in the Washington's sights and the Washington ceases fire. The final broadside from Washington put a projectile under Kirishima's fantail as she was turning away, knocking one of her rudders sideways. The Kirishima is done for.
Exactly, and with a carrier present, Force Z would be launching offensive strikes of Albacores escorted by Fulmars, forcing the IJNAF into an even more defensive posture; Do the Zeros escort bombers, or defend the convoy? On Feb 20 1942, Lexington's fighters slaughtered a group of IJN twin engine aircraft, that attacked her without a fighter escort. The Fulmars were designed with a massive ammo capacity to deal with exactly such attacks
