Lancaster loss 2-3rd August 1943

Discussion in 'Aviation' started by FlexiBull, Feb 14, 2009.

  1. FlexiBull

    FlexiBull Member

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    Where would I find information for German nightfighter kills on the night of 2-3 August 1943.

    To be a little more specific, Lt Hermann Leube of 2./NJG3 might be the pilot that shot down a Lancaster from 61 Sqn RAF. My uncle was the flight engineer on the Lancaster and until now the family has had no information apart from the fact that he was MIA on a raid to Hamburg.

    I have had some luck on another forum where a reference in Chorley has given me his Lancaster no.

    Any help or confirmation would be helpful.
     
  2. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    Leube possibly shot down Lanc W5000 of 61st squad.

    Fw. Ernst Schäfer shot down Lancaster JA 873 of the 61st squad. confirmed, Ernst was from 2./JG Hermann flying a Bf 109G-6.
     
  3. FlexiBull

    FlexiBull Member

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    That's the one Erich W5000 QR-B

    I have heard that he reported it as a Stirling. Do you have any more info on Lt Leube?

    FlexiBull
     
  4. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    I will have to look Flex. am on some terrible meds right now so my brain is on overload .........
     
  5. FlexiBull

    FlexiBull Member

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    Get to bed man .............. when you're feeling up to it.
     
  6. jupiter

    jupiter Member

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    Hi http://www.lesbutler.ip3.co.uk/tony/tonywood.htm follow this link where you find luftwaffe combat claims
    Night: 2-3. August 1943
    R.A.F. Bomber Command: HAMBURG

    03.08.43 Maj. Günther Radusch Stab II./NJG 3 Lancaster  UR in See: 5.000 m. [E. Helgoland] 01.22 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.37
    03.08.43 Fw. Krauter 5./NJG 3 4-m. Flgz.  TT-7.9: 1.600 m. 01.42 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.56
    03.08.43 Ofw. Heitmann 2./NJG 3 4-m. Flgz.  AQ-7.2 in See: 50-100 m. 01.55 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr. -
    03.08.43 Maj. Günther Radusch Stab II./NJG 3 Halifax  AE-3 in See: 5.500 m. 02.14 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.38
    03.08.43 Oblt. Hermann Greiner 11./NJG 1 Lancaster  BM-9.3a in See: 2.100 m. 03.06 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.304
    03.08.43 Hptm. Hans-Joachim Jabs Stab IV./NJG 1 Halifax  CL-2.9d: 5.500 m. 03.10 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.45
    03.08.43 Ltn. Hermann Leube 2./NJG 3 Stirling  AO-6.7d in See: 4.200 m. 03.28 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr. -
    03.08.43 Hptm. Hans-Joachim Jabs Stab IV./NJG 1 Stirling  Dl-2.6h: 2.300 m. [Waddenzee] 03.29 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.146
    03.08.43 Ofw. Karl-Heinz Scherfling 10./NJG 1 Lancaster  EJ-9.5 I See: 5.100 m. 03.33 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.61
    03.08.43 Ltn. Führer 4./NJG 3 vm. Halifax  85RS-7 in See: 4.600 m. 03.40 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.92
    03.08.43 Oblt. Hermann Greiner 11./NJG 1 Wellington  CM-3.8h in See: at 500 m. [off Ameland] 03.48 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.309
    03.08.43 Hptm. Hans-Joachim Jabs Stab IV./NJG 1 Stirling  Raum "Tiger" : at 2.100 m. 03.52 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.44

    Hope this helps
    pete
     
  7. jupiter

    jupiter Member

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    There were 2 lost from 61 squadron that night.Have you any more details ?
    Aircraft number, your uncles name?
    Pete
     
  8. FlexiBull

    FlexiBull Member

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    Hi there Jupiter folks are really helpful. I was directed to that webpage by someone on another forum and have also downloaded the Gradnerzt (fighter map reference) for that area and calculating the time and cruise speed it is fairly clear that that plane was on it's way back from the raid.

    Lancaster III W5000 QR-B is listed as missing, but as Erich mention it is reckonned that it was

    03.08.43 Ltn. Hermann Leube 2./NJG 3 Stirling  AO-6.7d in See: 4.200 m. 03.28 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr. -

    that shot down the Lanc

    Now I know it says a Stirling, but I think that someone with more access to data than I could imagine has found out that by looking at the Stirling losses for that night the claim maybe wrong and that Leube shot down a Lancaster. It was his first enemy destroyed.
     
  9. jupiter

    jupiter Member

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    Lancaster W5000 Information
    Type Lancaster
    Serial Number W5000
    Squadron 61
    X1D QR-B
    Operation Hamburg
    Date 1 2nd August 1943
    Date 2 3rd August 1943


    Further Information
    Serial Range W4761 - W5012 This aircraft was one of 200 Lancasters ordered from Metro-Vick in 1940 and built as 170 Mk.1s (W4761-W4982) with Merlin 20 engines and 30 Mk.111s (W4983-W5012) with Merlin 28 engines from Sep42 to May43. They were delivered to Woodford for final assembly and flight-testing. W5000 was delivered to 61 Squadron 20May43. W5000 took part in the following Key Operations: Dortmund 23/24May43; D_sseldorf 25/26May43; D_sseldorf 11/12Jun43; Oberhausen 14/15Jun43; Cologne 3/4Jul43; Turin 12/13Jul43; Hamburg 24/25Jul43; Hamburg 2/3aug43-Lost. Wen lost this aircraft had a total of 142 hours. W5000 was one of two 61 Squadron Lancasters lost on this operation. See JA873. Airborne 2339 2Aug43 from Syerston. Lost without trace. All are commemorated on the Runnymede Memorial. F/O R.Lyon KIA Sgt G.A.Hodges KIA F/O E.A.Povey KIA Sgt D.E.Dalton KIA Sgt G.W.Mackenzie KIA Sgt J.P.Badley KIA Sgt B.Robinson KIA


    Not the most reliable site but this is from lost bombers
     
  10. jupiter

    jupiter Member

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  11. Tony Clifford

    Tony Clifford New Member

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    I stumbled across this post by accident. My uncle Sgt Benji Robinson was the rear gunner. I have looked through the various links and would like to know where the information relating to the a/c was obtained. I know it left Syerston but didn't know the time. Is it possible to establish the registration number as correct. Benji's younger sister is still alive and my mother who died in 1989 would have loved to have known what happened. The info regarding Lt Leube an the shooting down of the Stirling is intriguing. Is it possible to establish if it was a Stirling or could it have been a Lancaster and indeed the missing one containing my uncle and his friends? All we know is that it was missing with no further information. Any further detail would be most welcome and any advice on where to look would be appreciated. One final quip but probably insignificant is that at about 02.30am on the 3 Aug 1943 my two grandparents woke up after a vivid nightmare concerning Benji struggling in the water. Needless to say that they were both devastated at their eldest sons loss. Tony

     
  12. Airframes

    Airframes Benevolens Magister

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    Hi Tony.
    Peter (Jupiter) only calls in now and then, but no doubt when he sees this post, he'll reply. He has a vast file of info on Lancaster operations, as his Grandfather and crew were shot down and captured in July 1944, which lead to him researching, in depth, BC ops in general. The info will be available in the squadron Operational records Books (ORBs) held at the national Archives, Kew, but, of course, it takes a lot of searching, unless specific dates etc are known.
    The avatar in his posts is my painting of his Grandfather's Lanc just after take off on their final mission.
     
  13. Tony Clifford

    Tony Clifford New Member

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    Hi. Thank you for the info. I was looking at detail for the Dambusters raid and found info about Hamburg in July / Aug 1943. It was amazing when reading through the various threads that my uncles name appeared. I have quite a bit of info relating to him and various letters written at the time. I have visited Kew and turned nothing up. All pilots who were interviewed on return to base saw nothing. It was this particular thread that made me join and ask the question. The family of my uncle have always thought the most likely option was a lightening strike and catastrophic result. The claim by Lt Leube now arouses interest.
     
  14. Airframes

    Airframes Benevolens Magister

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    There were countless aircraft which went missing without trace on night ops, most likely by direct hits from flak, or collision with other aircraft in the stream, with night fighter action being the third possibility, although, in most cases the latter can be documented.
     
  15. Tony Clifford

    Tony Clifford New Member

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    Airframes, I understand all of your suggestions. However, it seems that the threads are pointing to a confusion within the claims of the German pilots. My uncle was with 61 Squadron flying from Syerston to bomb Hamburg and was one of only two that the squadron lost that night. It seems that they made the target and after, on returning to base they crashed, most likely into the sea because there is no trace. Nobody saw anything untoward as reported in the debriefs of the other pilots and recorded at PRO on the return which makes it more likely it was after the target because the planes made there own way back. If it had been on the outward leg there is a good chance somebody would have seen something because of the formation. If possible could somebody point me in the right direction so that I can research these possibilities. I have already checked out the leads from the previous threads and 'Erich' claims another German pilot shot the a/c down. The fact that it wasn't until 16/03/1944 that the deaths of the crew was confirmed for official purposes seems to mean that the Germans were quite efficient at reporting their results. I would welcome any comments or observations on my thinking
     
  16. Airframes

    Airframes Benevolens Magister

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    Tony, I'll see if I can get in touch with Peter (Jupiter), as he lives not far from me. If I can contact him, I'll ask if he can assist and point him in your direction.
    Cheers,
    Terry.
     
  17. Tony Clifford

    Tony Clifford New Member

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    The original thread by me should be titled Missing Lancaster W5000. Sorry for misleading error!
     
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