Landing and basing fees at Brooklands and Croyden aerodromes, late 1930s

[LCharnes]

For reasons too convoluted to recount, I'm trying to find out what the landing and basing fee structures were at Brooklands and Croyden in the late 1930s.

Yes, I know I can send a request (and money) to Brooklands' archives, but they take forever. (My last query was finally answered after three months.) Since no piece of trivia seems too esoteric for this forum, I thought I'd try here first.

I'm also trying the National Aerospace Library again. Last time I asked, they didn't have anything.

Thanks in advance.

 

[SaparotRob]

Extra points for the menu from the tea counter.

 

[LCharnes]

Extra points for the menu from the tea counter.

Actually, if anyone knows whether the flying clubhouse (photo attached) included a cafe, I'd love to know about it. Not even the present owner knows.

 

[SaparotRob]

I really wouldn't be surprised if both were produced. The breadth and scope of aviation knowledge here is astounding.

 

[pbehn]

Actually, if anyone knows whether the flying clubhouse (photo attached) included a cafe, I'd love to know about it. Not even the present owner knows.

A cafe would be a bit "continental" for the era, I am sure it had a tea room, for high tea at 4PM with scones, Devonshire clotted cream and blueberry jam.

 

[LCharnes]

A cafe would be a bit "continental" for the era, I am sure it had a tea room, for high tea at 4PM with scones, Devonshire clotted cream and blueberry jam.

With the traffic in and out of Brooklands airfield, I'd expect something more like a tea or snack bar, open diner hours. Perhaps pub food without the pub, so it wouldn't have to be licensed. It seems to me that a place that served only high tea wouldn't be open long enough to make the rent. Unfortunately, while there are a zillion pictures of the clubhouse online, not one of them shows the interior.

 

[buffnut453]

As a club house, I would expect there to be a full-up restaurant, a licenced bar, and function rooms. This seems to be confirmed by the Brooklands website:

Brooklands Museum :: Club Level

www.brooklandsmuseum.com

 

[Snautzer01]

There is a book describing airfields and if i am not mistaken decribing functionalties of the field.
I cant get to my files now.

Wasnt there also a few chapters in Jane's all the world airplanes ?

 

[ThomasP]

re

"Brooklands Museum :: Club Level"

www.brooklandsmuseum.com

The Brooklands Automobile Racing Clubhouse had a restaurant in its building, but that building is at the opposite end of the airfield from the flying clubhouse.

"https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/brooklands-aerodrome-09-2023-aero-clubhouse-f-jpg.790751/"

There was a Blue Bird Restaurant over in the hangar area (actually built on to one end of a hangar) of the airfield from 1913 to the mid-1920s at least (maybe later), but it was not in the Brooklands Aerodrome office/control tower/flying clubhouse that LCharnes posted a picture of above.

from Flight magazine 1913

The little building on the right is the Passenger Flight booking office.

 

[SaparotRob]

What did I tell ya'? The Forum is all-knowing.

 

[pbehn]

As a club house, I would expect there to be a full-up restaurant, a licenced bar, and function rooms. This seems to be confirmed by the Brooklands website:

Brooklands Museum :: Club Level

www.brooklandsmuseum.com

Nothing looks more like a cricket pavilion than that club house. I would suggest that it was heavily modelled on a cricket club and many members played cricket, drove fast cars and had a private pilots license.

 

[LCharnes]

As a club house, I would expect there to be a full-up restaurant, a licenced bar, and function rooms. This seems to be confirmed by the Brooklands website:

Brooklands Museum :: Club Level

www.brooklandsmuseum.com

That's the Racing Club's clubhouse, up at the north end of the Brooklands compound. The one I'm concerned with is the Aero Clubhouse down on the southwest end (next to TK Maxx if you're on Google Maps -- look for "The Signature Store.") I wouldn't be surprised if at least some of what you mention was there once upon a time, though it's a smaller building than the racing clubhouse. The problem is that its insides are a blank slate as far as I've been able to find.

This is the total presence of the Aero Clubhouse on the Brooklands website. I may have to throw myself on the mercy of the Brooklands archives eventually, but I was hoping I could get answers here in less than several months.

A reminder: this thread started asking about landing fees for Brooklands and Croyden in the late 1930s. Anyone?

 

[LCharnes]

There is a book describing airfields and if i am not mistaken decribing functionalties of the field.
I cant get to my files now.

Wasnt there also a few chapters in Jane's all the world airplanes ?

View attachment 790801

I bought Flying Start: Flying Schools and Clubs at Brooklands, 1910-1939 when I visited Brooklands last year. (It was on sale.) Even though there's a stylized rendering of the Aero Clubhouse on every bloody page, the only thing the book has to say about the clubhouse itself is, "On 28 May 1932, the magnificent new Aero Clubhouse was opened. Designed by Graham Dawbarn in typical 1930's [sic] style, it became the pattern for aerodrome buildings throughout the world." Not a word about what was in it.

The thing is, it's a relatively small building with only one floor of office space. Between the offices of the Brooklands Aero Club, possibly the Press Aero Club, and the Club Shop, I have to wonder how much space was left for a bar or dining room.

 

[pbehn]

With the traffic in and out of Brooklands airfield, I'd expect something more like a tea or snack bar, open diner hours. Perhaps pub food without the pub, so it wouldn't have to be licensed. It seems to me that a place that served only high tea wouldn't be open long enough to make the rent. Unfortunately, while there are a zillion pictures of the clubhouse online, not one of them shows the interior.

Oh serving "High Tea" at 4 PM was just a slightly comic example, I was joking in a way but the joke is based on the style of the era. Coffee houses were popular in the 19th century, but they "morphed" into men only gentlemens clubs and things like Lloyds insurance . Cafes are popular now but in that era I dont think they were so much, mainly because of the climate. I was thinking more of a place like "Betty's" link below, a classic English tea room which was popular at the time and still is. High Tea at 4 PM is just an example, I have had breakfast, lunch and high tea at various Bettys outlets. I imagine Brooklands and Croydon Airport clubs to be similar to places like Betty's and Lords cricket members pavilion. https://www.bettys.co.uk/cafe-tea-rooms

 

[Shortround6]

1938 Jane's has very few details. says full details of the A.A. landing grounds are published in Automobile Association's Register of Aircraft Landing Grounds but those may be more temporary fields?
There is a listing for Brooklands flying club for the Instructors, managing director and general manager but you may have that in the history book you already have.

Interesting in spite of being published after the "crisis" of Sept 1938 and no new R.A.F. Aerodromes being listed for secrecy many existing Royal Air Force Aerodromes and Landing Grounds are open to civil aviation (with exceptions) in certain circumstances.

1. for refueling and deplaning passengers and freight where no civil air station is available.
2. For emplaning of passengers and freight where not civil air station is available, provided that permission has been previously obtained from the Air Ministry and the local commanding officer.
Aircraft will be housed at such stations for periods up to 24 hours at the discretion of the commanding officer and if space is available.

I have no idea if Flight Magazine archives would have any information?

 

[LCharnes]

1938 Jane's has very few details. says full details of the A.A. landing grounds are published in Automobile Association's Register of Aircraft Landing Grounds but those may be more temporary fields?
There is a listing for Brooklands flying club for the Instructors, managing director and general manager but you may have that in the history book you already have.

Interesting in spite of being published after the "crisis" of Sept 1938 and no new R.A.F. Aerodromes being listed for secrecy many existing Royal Air Force Aerodromes and Landing Grounds are open to civil aviation (with exceptions) in certain circumstances.

1. for refueling and deplaning passengers and freight where no civil air station is available.
2. For emplaning of passengers and freight where not civil air station is available, provided that permission has been previously obtained from the Air Ministry and the local commanding officer.
Aircraft will be housed at such stations for periods up to 24 hours at the discretion of the commanding officer and if space is available.

I have no idea if Flight Magazine archives would have any information?

The AA Register supposedly covered every active airfield in Britain, including the well-established ones. While I was able to get copies of the AA flight charts at the RAF Museum archives, they didn't have any AA Registers, nor did the NAL, so I can't confirm this. Some excerpts shown on the Culham Ticket Office website range from glorified pastures (like Stanton St. John, where my heroine is based) to bustling airfields such as Wallingford.

I ran out of time at the NAL before I could go through the late-'30s Flight Magazine back numbers. I don't seem to be able to raise my previous contact there, so I may have to start over with them.

 

[ThomasP]

This is all I found after looking for a couple of hours online.

Oxford-Stanton St. John (England) - landing fee 2s.6d. for small(ish) aircraft 1933
Schiphol (Netherlands)- 1% per engine HP (set by Ministry of War) early-1930s
Juba (South Sudan) - landing fee 52sh. for small planes, 105sh. for large planes 1939 (note that this fee was considered very high, but was justified in order to provide/expand facilities)

 

[Shortround6]

Flight magazine archives used to be available on line for free but they stopped that a number of years back. It was supposed to be available to subscribers but there was a problem/delay setting that up and I don't know if it ever got set up.

When free it was searchable (enter word/phrase and year and get relevant results)

some issues seem to be available here

https://archive.org/details/FlightInternationalMagazine1938/1938%20-%200004/

But I don't know how to use the search function.

 

[ThomasP]

Hathitrust apparently has most of the Flight (and later incarnations) magazines from the first issue in 1909 through Dec'28 - digitized and downloadable for free. They apparently also have access to the later issues through the various college libraries, but the volumes are locked against download due to copyright restrictions - though you may do word searches through their search engine.

"Catalog Record: Flight International"

 

[ThomasP]

Hey LCharnes,

FWIW If you do not already know this, the Brooklands Aero Clubhouse was built in 1932, funded by Brooklands Aviation Ltd (I think). Maybe there is some information there you can use in your research. There is mention of the 'Air & Airways' magazine having a presence there during the opening. Maybe check out said magazine?

Also, there were a couple of films made at Brooklands in the early-1930s. One was about auto racing, but the other - 'The Kings Cup' - was oriented around said air race and was filmed in 1932 shortly after the Aero Clubhouse was built (released in 1933?). There are supposed to be scenes from inside the Aero Clubhouse.

Also, there was a caricature made of Brooklsnds Aero Club in 1932 - "Our Flying Clubs No. 1 - Brooklands Aero Club" - that mentions the following people:

"Notable members of the club pictured here include the manager, A. Percy Bradley, Ian Stoddart-Barr, Sales Manager, Billy Massey, one of the directors in charge of the repair shop, Capt. H. Duncan Davis, Managing Director, Bob the barman (important!), Ginger Ruutz-Rees, K. Mistinger, S. A Thorne, instructor and acrobatic pilot, Flight Lieut W. E. P. Johnson a prominent exponent of blind flying and the chief instructor, George E. Lowdell"

So there was at least a bar. Assuming they were real people then maybe there are records that could help, left by or about some of them.

Otherwise, I ran across this 1938 floor plan of the Croydon main building. It would seem like there should be a plan of all such airport buildings?