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An air system doesn't have leaking hydraulic fluid to help find the leak, assuming it is an external leak and not a leak in a valve body or double acting piston seal
Anecdotal accounts say that the Hurricane was more rugged than the Spitfire. In theory this should mean that it was also more maintainable, as it implies that the airframe (fuselage/wings/tail/landing gear) as a whole needed less maintenance.
From what I have read (both official and anecdotal) it was easier on average to repair damage on the Hurricane, and more of the damaged Hurricane airframes were repairable at the squadron level.
The undercarriage of the Spitfire seems to have been significantly more prone to damage - at least on the Seafire variants when operating from CVs - than the Hurricane's undercarriage.
The wood and fabric covering on the Hurricane fuselage would (it seems to me) require more routine maintenance than the metal skinning on the Spitfire.
Which of the above aspects should we use to answer the OP?
HiWell, they had rigged up and tested the Tiger Moth with a pair of racks each holding four 20lb bombs. Which was twice the load that most WW British fighters could carry.
tests were done with the racks under the rear cockpit and with the bombs under the lower wing.
The big problem is the lack of training. No practice bombs available and apparently the idea of using bricks didn't work. (Moth could out dive a tumbling brick ?)
While experienced pilots might have gotten away with it asking student pilots to spot targets on the ground, perform the desired attack profile ( climb to 800ft and then dive to 500ft while maintaining sight line to target and do this while trying to avoid ground fire AND keep an eye out (and they were flown as single seaters) for hostile fighters seems to asking a bit much.
With that said, the Gladiator
View attachment 690874
Isn't quite as simple as it appears.
The rigging/flying wires need attention.
It does have flaps on the both wings (manual?)
You have ailerons on both wings.
I believe it has wheel brakes.
There is a spring suspension in the wheel hubs.
The prop is fixed pitch so that is good. And the Metal one you could fix with a hammer
Not sure sure changing the plugs on the radial 9 is easier than the V-12 or not.
The V-12 doesn't use grease fittings on the valve gear.
It carries the same radios as an early Hurricane/Spit.
only 4 guns but two need synchronizers.
HiThat's interesting information and outlines that during the war that efficiencies could be improved on if procedures were tightened, and sufficient supply of parts was available. It's interesting to note the bit where it says to keep maintenance in step with the flying schedule and to minimise the servicing done away from base. In a military context that could be done, but with airliners it's not possible because of the schedules they keep, even at the time there were gonna be times when the aircraft needed servicing outside of its maintenance bases, particularly with regards to unscheduled maintenance, or defect rectification as it's called. Organisations have away teams that can travel to do work on aircraft and no doubt they had similar things back then, the "gangs" as they called them in that book. Interesting how the book mentions "the formation of a highly skilled rectification gang to work at nights to deal with repair work that would cause undue delay if left to the normal inspection gang". That's exactly what Light and Line Maintenance is in the airline world. Scheduled inspections and defect rectification at a time when the aircraft isn't working, nominally at night. This is opposed to Heavy Maintenance, which focusses on major structural inspections, or the "inspection gangs" as mentioned in the book. In military parlance these are Group Servicing, with Line Maintenance being Phase Servicing, but the roles are exactly the same.
RAF Servicing from 'my day' as per my training notes:
There are limits on propellers for blade erosion and dings. You are right about the wood blades but over the years it's been a practice to tear down any engine or gearbox that has had a "sudden stoppage" because of a prop strike, no matter how minor. Usually when a prop goes out of limits in the field, it's a matter of R&R and the prop is sent to a backshop for repair/ overhaulThe same goes for propellers to a certain degree (I think). I do not know much about the maintenance/repair of the cans/hubs, but I am under the impression that all types of blades could be repaired if the damage was not too serious - the limits depending on the type of blade and extent of damage. Aluminum and steel blades were often(?) straightened and had minor nicks and such repaired and/or tips reduced. Wood blades tendered to suffer more permanent damage due to breakage, but I have read that due to the wood blades breaking the hubs and/or reduction gear boxes were less likely to suffer damage. If the air force had replacement blades galore, and they simply replaced the blades or hubs rather than repair them, do we count the man hours needed to manufacture the blades and hubs - or just the time to replace the blades?
The Zero was said to be easy to maintain but interchangeability was poor and the Japanese did not have good logistics support in the SWP. I would stick my neck out to say that just as many Zeros were lost due to lack of parts as in combat! I don't think much thought was put into logistic support as many didn't think the war would last as long as it did.The A6M Zero. The overall maintenance record of the Zero shows that it was relatively reliable and easy to maintain. But, as has been brought up in other threads, the center fuselage section and wing were built as a unit - so any major serious to either required the replacement of both, with the center section being sent back to the factory if salvageable. I assume that the initial purchase orders/costs included some spares for rebuilding an airframe, but out on the islands they would have quickly become unavailable due to logistics issues. How does cannibalization count toward reliability and maintainability? How often did the center section need to be replaced? Did the concept payoff due to operational considerations?
That decision would be left to the onsite maintenance chief/ maintenance officer and the resources they had available to repair damaged aircraft (to include manpower)By the end of the war, to a certain extant the USN was treating entire airframes operated off of CVs as one-use articles. If an airframe would require more than a certain number of man-hours to repair the aircraft would be set aside or tossed over the side. This last example may not apply to the OP, as it is replacing an airframe as opposed to maintaining it, but the range of the concept goes from the Darne to what % of the airframe?
Just some more thoughts & questions.
Where does the quicker overhaul figure come from? There were 100 Hurricane I converted to IIA and given new serials between BV155 and 174, DG612 and 651, DR339 and 374, DR391 and 394. All the other conversions retained their serial numbers. The Hurricane serial number list is as solid as the Spitfire one.Hurricanes could be and were overhauled at maintenance units more quickly and more extensively than Spitfires; in fact, Hurricane maintenance and repair figures are blurred because of the extent to which aircraft were modified and re-rolled out after repair. Mk.Is often ended up as Mk.IIs after a repair/rebuild at an MU and parts of one airframe were fitted to another, so even tracking serial numbers takes quite a bit of detective work in the archives when it comes to researching repaired Hurricanes.
HiThat's great info but looks rather convoluted. Surely it could have been simplified. The term "Base" servicing is still in use today, Base Maintenance is used to describe heavy maintenance by some operators. What aircraft are we talking about in "your day", Mike? I worked on C-130s, P-3s and UH-1s, aside from various airlinery types.
July to October 1940 the repair system output was 439 Hurricanes and 249 Spitfires.
Where does the quicker overhaul figure come from?
If you look at the stats from the BoB the Spit was harder to hit than the Hurricane and because of it's higher performance could engage where the Hurri couldn't, also the Hurri was in service earlier so was a known aircraft, all this stuff adds up, the Hurri was easier to repair but needed to be repaired more often while most likely engaging in less combat, same could be said for the P47, the P47 is regarded as being a tough plane but ground attack sorties would have sent it's maintenance costs through the roof.Anecdotal accounts say that the Hurricane was more rugged than the Spitfire. In theory this should mean that it was also more maintainable, as it implies that the airframe (fuselage/wings/tail/landing gear) as a whole needed less maintenance.
They were easier to hit so more needed repairing, there was more of them, being in service longer they were known by the maintenance guys, all the above?.So, more Hurricanes than Spitfires, what does that tell you?
How do we measure this for this thread? We can use maintenance man hours to get something of an idea, particularly for the airframe types that were detail maintained. But does this apply to the armed forces and/or airframe types that used a fair amount of what were effectively LRUs? Also what types/levels of maintenance and repair do we use.
The A6M Zero. The overall maintenance record of the Zero shows that it was relatively reliable and easy to maintain. But, as has been brought up in other threads, the center fuselage section and wing were built as a unit - so any major serious to either required the replacement of both, with the center section being sent back to the factory if salvageable. I assume that the initial purchase orders/costs included some spares for rebuilding an airframe, but out on the islands they would have quickly become unavailable due to logistics issues. How does cannibalization count toward reliability and maintainability? How often did the center section need to be replaced? Did the concept payoff due to operational considerations?
By the end of the war, to a certain extant the USN was treating entire airframes operated off of CVs as one-use articles. If an airframe would require more than a certain number of man-hours to repair the aircraft would be set aside or tossed over the side. This last example may not apply to the OP, as it is replacing an airframe as opposed to maintaining it, but the range of the concept goes from the Darne to what % of the airframe?
The same goes for propellers to a certain degree (I think). I do not know much about the maintenance/repair of the cans/hubs, but I am under the impression that all types of blades could be repaired if the damage was not too serious - the limits depending on the type of blade and extent of damage. Aluminum and steel blades were often(?) straightened and had minor nicks and such repaired and/or tips reduced. Wood blades tendered to suffer more permanent damage due to breakage, but I have read that due to the wood blades breaking the hubs and/or reduction gear boxes were less likely to suffer damage. If the air force had replacement blades galore, and they simply replaced the blades or hubs rather than repair them, do we count the man hours needed to manufacture the blades and hubs - or just the time to replace the blades?
They were easier to hit, there was more of them, being in service longer they were known by the maintenance guys, all the above?.
The obvious.So, more Hurricanes than Spitfires, what does that tell you?
Given the amount of poor quality information around about the Hurricane, includuding the "Mk.Is often ended up as Mk.IIs after a repair/rebuild" ideas, engine fits and so on, I discount anything unless it is backed by original documents. In any case quicker overhaul now becomes more were done? More done is to be expected. The question being what resources were needed to do this and whether they were quicker.I didn't provide figures, sooo...? At least that was my understanding based on the fact that a greater number of Hurricanes were overhauled within a given time period. I have not read exact figures, but had seen it written before, and you have kindly provided that information.
The loss figures are there because of the Hurricane was more rugged claims. Yet a greater percentage of Hurricanes hit by enemy fire were lost using the Bungay figures, while the other set of figures says 1.1 Spitfires were damaged for every one lost, versus 0.84 Hurricanes damaged per loss. So how do these results fit the more rugged idea? Both airframes would have the same designed strength factors.The added info from Bungay and After the Battle that you supplied doesn't really add anything to a discussion on maintenance,
Scheduled maintenance and repairing battle damage are two different animals. Scheduled maintenance is a known given, the procedures will be the same to the point where you can estimate the manhours for the task. Any type of damage to the aircraft to include battle damage is an unknown until the airframe is thoroughly inspected.When it comes to claims the Hurricane had easier maintenance that requires some sort of measurement, it had lots of common parts with the Spitfire, but was, for example, the Spitfire hydraulic system more/less complex and easier/harder to service? People talk about hits on the rear fuselage, what about damage to wing surfaces, any difference in repair/maintenance effort between the two different types? And so on.
And I think you'll find that arming the aircraft was the major time consumer on both Spitfire and Hurricane.Although I have read official documents stating that the turn-around time was quicker for the Hurricane, I have not run across any official documentation that said the routine maintenance was any quicker. The only comments that might apply are that some systems were easier to access in the Hurricane. (This last is from a pre-war comparison of the Hurricane and Spitfire by the RAE/A&AEE, which covered ease maintenance and turn-around times.)
Two sets of data. From Wood and Dempster, the Narrow Margin, Appendix 15. The losses exclude destroyed or damaged on ground. Unfortunately no Category 1 figures in the book. Category 1, repair in unit, Category 2 repair beyond unit capacity, Category 3 total loss, Category 3m total loss, missing.The only major area that I have found official mention of (where the Hurricane was clearly superior to the Spitfire) was in the area of repair of damage. There are several official reports (including at least one posted online) that indicate that a significantly larger % of Hurricanes could be repaired at the squadron level than the Spitfire, and at the next level of repair (I am sorry but I do not remember the term right now for the other levels of facility) than the Spitfire.
I do not remember the exact numbers, but IIRC the Spitfire had to be sent to the rear for repair about twice as often as the Hurricane. Possibly someone has records with such information for multiple squadrons of each type, but I only have general and/or short term records for a couple of Hurricane Sqn and one Spitfire Sqn, and that is too little I think to make any authoritative conclusion from.
Type | Hurricane | Hurricane | Spitfire | Spitfire |
Damage Category | Cat 2 | Cat 3 | Cat 2 | Cat 3 |
August 1940 | ||||
combat | 49 | 220 | 55 | 118 |
accident | 38 | 18 | 35 | 14 |
September 1940 | ||||
combat | 95 | 228 | 80 | 130 |
accident | 60 | 21 | 56 | 13 |
Totals | ||||
combat | 144 | 448 | 135 | 248 |
accident | 98 | 39 | 91 | 27 |
Total | 242 | 487 | 226 | 275 |
British | Cat 1 | Cat2 | Cat3 | Cat3m |
Blenheim 1F | 14 | 4 | 6 | 15 |
Defiant | 3 | 8 | 6 | 9 |
Beaufighter | 1 | 0 | 1 | 0 |
Hurricane Mk I | 166 | 200 | 98 | 386 |
Hurricane Mk II | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 |
Spitfire IB | 2 | 0 | 0 | 3 |
Spitfire IA | 85 | 171 | 76 | 183 |
Germans | 1-39% | 40-59% | 60-99% | 100% |
BF109 | 82 | 36 | 64 | 375 |
Bf 110 | 37 | 19 | 24 | 183 |
Do17Z | 41 | 15 | 20 | 100 |
Do18 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 4 |
Do 215 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 5 |
Do 24 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 |
Unknown Fighter | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 |
Fw 200 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 |
Go 145 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 |
He 111 | 48 | 29 | 18 | 152 |
He 115 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 10 |
He 59 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 13 |
Hs 126 | 0 | 4 | 3 | 1 |
Ju 87 | 18 | 10 | 7 | 61 |
Ju 88 | 60 | 37 | 28 | 163 |