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109E-1 weighed 2500kg, E-3 - 2610, E-4 - 2570.Change from 109C/D to 109E was about 450kg, mostly due the DB 601 engine and accessories (and fuel). But the bigger engine allowed for almost 100kph more speed.
The 109E-3 weighed 2608kg, useful load was 555kg (1224lbs) But the 109E carried a bit less fuel but more guns/ammo than old Curtiss.
Surprisingly, our opinions are in agreement.I am sorry, I am failing to follow the logic of an old obsolete aircraft being being demoted to ground support somehow allows a "standard" fighter to be transferred to the Light fighter catagory?
Well, we have done this a few times before
And there are several hiccups when we try to come up with definitions.
A big one is simply time. What was standard weight in 1936/37 was often "light weight" in 1940. So which is it?
And does changing the engine bounce a plane from "light" to "Standard weight?
Like.
The P-36/ Hawk 75 is a really great plane as with a little selective selection you can often prove most any thing you want.
The Hawk 75 first flew In April 1935 and grossed 4843lbs (2187kg) and had top speed of 281 mph and had two .30 cal machineguns.
Unfortunately it used an Experimental Wright 14 cylinder engine that went nowhere and the search for newer and better engines began and the weight gain saga began.
however a breakdown of the weight of the fixed landing gear Hawk 75H is rather instructive.
Wing............................... 780lbs
Tail....................................107lbs
Landing gear................342lbs
Fuselage.........................467lbs
Airframe weight.........1696lbs
Powerplant weight....1893lbs
Fixed equipment..........386lbs
Empty weight...............3975lbs
Normal useful load..1330lbs
Normal gross..............5305lbs
The useful load consisted of
Pilot.................................200lbs
Fuel (120 US gal)........720lbs
Oil.....................................68lbs
Guns/ammo.................174lb
Radio...............................100lbs
Oxygen system.............15lbs
Signal pistol.....................8lbs
Flairs (landing)...............50lbs
The engine was an 875hp Wright Cyclone R-1820
The guns were one .50 cal machine gun with 200 rounds and one .30 cal with 600 rounds.
Speed with fixed gear was 280mph at 10,700ft.
Now for our "light fighter" we can reduce the useful load by taking out some things, like the chubby pilot
Some of the fuel and oil. Taking out the .50 cal gun and replacing with a .30 cal (two .30 cal total?)
Radios are over rated
We won't fly at night so we won't need landing flares
Change from 109C/D to 109E was about 450kg, mostly due the DB 601 engine and accessories (and fuel). But the bigger engine allowed for almost 100kph more speed.
The 109E-3 weighed 2608kg, useful load was 555kg (1224lbs) But the 109E carried a bit less fuel but more guns/ammo than old Curtiss.
I am sorry, I am failing to follow the logic of an old obsolete aircraft being being demoted to ground support somehow allows a "standard" fighter to be transferred to the Light fighter catagory?
109E-1 weighed 2500kg, E-3 - 2610, E-4 - 2570.
Surprisingly, our opinions are in agreement.
So what's the problem with accepting the definition offered above as a definition? Only "true" "light" fighters - C.710/713/714, Potez 230 (with HS12Xcrs), MB.700, XP-77 (thanks, SaparotRob!), SAM-13, R.30, SAI 207/403 - would be included . Even the VG.30 can no longer be considered as "light" - it was supposed to be equipped with HS 12Y-49 and Allison V-1710 in serial production, its weight corresponded to the contemporary Bf.109s. The CW-21, still, was a "colonial" fighter, and was not considered as an alternative to "conventional" fighters. Therefore, it is also outside the scope of the concept.
It is impossible to achieve a reasonable compromise between flight performance, operational characteristics, avionics equipment and armament within the "light fighter" concept. Sacrificing one of these characteristics for the sake of the others results in a deliberately inferior airplane. The flight performance of the unarmed prototypes should not be misleading - it would have inevitably deteriorated if armament had been installed. Why consider alternatives to something that was fundamentally unsuitable?
I have not problems with that definition. The US had two other "light fighters but they didn't get far, either not off paper or very little wood cut. Tucker XP-57 (powered by an inline 8 designed by Henry Miller) and the Douglas XP-48 which seem to have had some extremely optimistic performance estimates.So what's the problem with accepting the definition offered above as a definition? Only "true" "light" fighters - C.710/713/714, Potez 230 (with HS12Xcrs), MB.700, XP-77 (thanks, SaparotRob!), SAM-13, R.30, SAI 207/403 - would be included . Even the VG.30 can no longer be considered as "light" - it was supposed to be equipped with HS 12Y-49 and Allison V-1710 in serial production, its weight corresponded to the contemporary Bf.109s.
Details of the CW-21, sketchy as they are, hint at some of the "methods" these light fighters used to get good performance. Like considering radios as "optional" equipment.The CW-21, still, was a "colonial" fighter, and was not considered as an alternative to "conventional" fighters. Therefore, it is also outside the scope of the concept.
Quirk is that a light fighter that US government might've bought would've been a 'full size' fighter in the USSR. So one definition will not fit all the parts of the world. What is a light fighter also changed with time.
But we can try with the more localized definitions, that are not absolute but relative. A fighter that weights 70-75% of what the current in-production fighter weights, while providing 70-75% firepower and similar range? Eg. the Bf 109E-3 was at ~2600 kg clean, so a light German fighter fit for this thread for late 1938 to late 1940 should weight 1900-2000 kg and have perhaps one MG FF + 4 MG 17s? If the fighter has engines of yesterday and can be made in the factories and by the workforce that is not seasoned in working with light alloys, and it fits the 'light' guidance, even better.
Because the concept of the "light fighter" doesn't make much sense.I've seen you denigrate and ridicule the very concept in this forum before.
Well, I've only included projects that have been finalized for flight testing. If we consider all the projects, you are right, the list would be longer.I have not problems with that definition. The US had two other "light fighters but they didn't get far, either not off paper or very little wood cut. Tucker XP-57 (powered by an inline 8 designed by Henry Miller) and the Douglas XP-48 which seem to have had some extremely optimistic performance estimates.
Nevertheless, I tend to consider the CW-21 not as an alternative to "conventional" fighters, but rather as an exceptionally well-engineered lightweight design of a "conventional" fighter with a sufficiently powerful engine (1000 hp in 1938 is pretty good!). But that's just my personal point of view.Details of the CW-21, sketchy as they are, hint at some of the "methods" these light fighters used to get good performance. Like considering radios as "optional" equipment.
It was attempt to sell a beefed up trainer as a fighter. Curtiss had limits success selling the armed trainers to South America. There were several versions of the trainers in almost simultaneous development.Nevertheless, I tend to consider the CW-21 not as an alternative to "conventional" fighters, but rather as an exceptionally well-engineered lightweight design of a "conventional" fighter with a sufficiently powerful engine (1000 hp in 1938 is pretty good!). But that's just my personal point of view.
Because the concept of the "light fighter" doesn't make much sense.
You have to use a full size cockpit so there is no savings in material or volume (unless you can recruit horse racing jockeys to be be pilots) in the cockpit area.
You have put a full suite of instruments in the cockpit so there is no cost savings there.
You should put in a standard radio so there is no cost or weight savings there.
Now we can shift to things like not putting in the normal amount of guns. This keeps the weight down but it means you need more planes to get the same number of guns into the combat area, so the cost per gun is not much different.
And that slops over into the engines/propellers. If we need 30% more 700hp engines to get the same number of guns into the air as we need 1000hp engines what are we saving?
And this is from a 1939-40 point of view. Once you start putting in armor/BP glass and fuel tank protection things look even worse for the light fighter. You need to protect the pilot and fuel to a certain level, using thin armor or BP glass because you used a cheap/low powered engine means you loose more pilots/aircraft and the cost of the substandard protection is wasted along with the aircraft.
You seem to have an anti-American bias.
The US did do some not too bright things at times during the war. The insistence of using six .50 cal machine guns as a standard armament was probably one of them. This seems to have been down with little or no actual combat experience to justify it which did lead to some of the size/weight problems of the American fighters.
Kind of depends what you want to do, doesn't it.I would say it is very hard to make the case that one P-47 was even worth a single Yak-3 for that Theater, to be honest.
Part of the US design was the extra fuel. I don't know were it actually came from but it had either very little or nothing to do with bomber escort.
You were not going to escort B-17s with P-36s.
Fuel capacity of the P-36/P-40 family jumped around a bit. Most were "rated" at 105-120 US gallons (454 liters) for performance numbers but the US built in a lot of extra tankage.
The Fixed wing Hawk 75H could hold another 100 (?) US gallons inside. The P-36A held 105 US gallons at normal gross and 164 gallons at overload. The extra fuel was in the tank behind the pilots seat and screwed up the CG so the extra fuel was not to be put in when combat was anticipate.
US had stagnated with fighter armament for much of the 1930s. They kept to the one .50 cal and one .30 cal too long and then swung the other way very hard.
The P-40 was not a well thought out airplane. It was what they could get in a hurry that was better than a P-36. But two synchronized .50s in 1939 was little better (if as good) as the Italian fighters. US tried putting a single .30 in each wing to try catch up. There were a number of P-36s floating around with some interesting armament set ups. Like two .50s in the fuselage and four .30s in each wing. Then the US almost panicked 1940 and bunch of armament setups were proposed (Like the Curtiss P-53/P-60 which were trying to match the P-47s eight guns).
Given the limited power of the Allison in the P-40 trying to double the weight of the guns and ammo was not the best idea.
The early P-40s had 365lbs of guns and ammo, the the P-40Cs had 600lbs and the P-40E had 901lbs. Plus the armor and self sealing tanks and this was just too much. The increase in power was something of an illusion. The 1150hp at 12,000ft dropped to 1090hp several thousand feet higher, very close to the power in the P-40C. I don't know if they were hoping for a power increase that was late (very late) in coming. A mistake was increasing the ammo capacity of the fuselage .50s in the P-40B&C from 200rpg to 380rpg. A lot of weight for not much additional firepower. 108lbs of ammo that they had to wait over 20-24 seconds to use. A smarter choice would have been four .50s in the wing and then leave it alone for the P-40E. Save 300lbs.
The P-39 was pretty much a disaster from the start. Way too much gun and ammo for the same engine. Less fuel meant to could not travel as far as a P-40 and it couldn't climb enough different to make any difference.
Kind of depends what you want to do, doesn't it.
Stop high altitude German recon planes?
Try to stop high altitude German nuisance raiders?
Soviets never tried P-47s for ground attack. Kind of a waste of the turbo but the late model P-47s could almost give IL-2s a run for their money carrying bombs/ground attack munitions.
Yes the P-47 may not have been the best choice for fighter vs fighter at under 15,000ft but it wasn't that bad either.
The P-47 was practically useless as an interceptor - on tests in the USSR it gained 5000m altitude in 8.5 min (P-47D-10RE), which was absolutely unacceptable.Kind of depends what you want to do, doesn't it.
Stop high altitude German recon planes?
Try to stop high altitude German nuisance raiders?
Actually, the P-47 with a bomb load above 1100kg was comparable to the Pe-2 (which had a standard load of 600-700kg!), especially since it could successfully bomb from dive. And the Soviets finally even realized this and transferred the P-47s to the Northern Fleet, where they were used both as escort fighters and bombers - including skip bombing.Soviets never tried P-47s for ground attack. Kind of a waste of the turbo but the late model P-47s could almost give IL-2s a run for their money carrying bombs/ground attack munitions.
This is rather after the fact isn't it?No but you could certainly escort say, DB-7s. They escorted a variety of bombers - Blenheims, Vultee Vengeance, even B-24s in Burma / India.
P-51 had the tank added late in the design process to meet a specific mission requirement. P-36/P-40s were planning on using the extra fuel capacity for deployment/ferry flights, not combat. The belly tank on the P-40s was to restore the fuel capacity to pre self sealing levels, not to add range but to restore range. Depending on the rear tank for combat escort depends on the enemy co-operating. Like not attacking in the early stages of the bombing mission. Escorting bombers in the Pacific where there were long distances of flying over water where you could burn off the fuel helped. But the P-40 was not as critical as the P-36. The longer, heavier engine in the P-40 meant that the P-40 didn't have the same CG issues that the P-36/Hawk 75 had.P-51 had the same issue with the fuselage tank, that fuel would be used before entering a combat area. P-40s did that routinely for longer strike missions.
People have killed dangerous animals with .22LR guns. Doesn't mean it was good idea, most of the time it was because they didn't have anything better at the time.One .50 and one .30 is pretty much what the early Ki-43s had right into 1943, and they were shooting down Hurricanes, P-51As, P-40s, P-39s, and yep P-38s with those.
Going in circles here. P-40s more than tripled the weight of guns and ammo from early 1939 (initial orders) to mid 1940 (orders for the P-40D/E), with very little power increase. The newer US fighters were ordered with even more guns/ammo. Yes, they did take some of the guns and ammo out of the P-40s, both in the factory and in the field to help get around the lack of power problem.Maybe, but the P-40s had fairly good combat records in a wide array of Theaters, pretty much everywhere they used them. In cases where they were facing a lot of fighter combat they did sometimes remove two or even four of the guns from the Kittyhawk types. Having more ammunition seemed to be a trend over time, P-40s carried a lot less than most later war US fighters.
ReallyThe Hawk 87 / Kittyhawk types seemed to do a little worse than the Hawk 81 / Tomahawk type initially, but when they started increasing power (and I guess getting better fuel) they more than caught up. It didn't take that long.
Really brings up some of the differences in theaters. May also bring out differences in operation and expected engine life and aircraft life.I don't totally disagree, though it seemed to do fairly well in the Soviet Theater, to wit
A lot to unpack.
This is rather after the fact isn't it?
When the US Army ordered the P-36s (or thinking about the first P-40s) they were not worried about escorting DB-7s, or Vultee Vengeances or B-24s, none of them existed yet. The US Army was certainly not worried about escorting British Blenheims. The US Army never ordered any DB-7s. But a lot of things didn't go as planned. The US Army ordered 63 A-20s and 14 A-20As May 20th 1939. The A-20s were
supposed to have turbos and the A-20As had two speed superchargers. Turns out the Wright R-2600 engines did not play well with turbos (chronic overheating). Trying to escort turbo equipped bombers with non-turbo fighters flying at lower altitudes would have been interesting.
What many planes wound up doing was often not what they were designed to do. But you often can't go back and design new planes and get them into production in time to fight. Sometimes yes but a lot of times no.
P-51 had the tank added late in the design process to meet a specific mission requirement. P-36/P-40s were planning on using the extra fuel capacity for deployment/ferry flights, not combat. The belly tank on the P-40s was to restore the fuel capacity to pre self sealing levels, not to add range but to restore range. Depending on the rear tank for combat escort depends on the enemy co-operating. Like not attacking in the early stages of the bombing mission. Escorting bombers in the Pacific where there were long distances of flying over water where you could burn off the fuel helped. But the P-40 was not as critical as the P-36. The longer, heavier engine in the P-40 meant that the P-40 didn't have the same CG issues that the P-36/Hawk 75 had.
People have killed dangerous animals with .22LR guns. Doesn't mean it was good idea, most of the time it was because they didn't have anything better at the time.
US Army (and Navy) screwed up. They thought (planned) on their enemies attacking them with the same sort of bombers that the US was building/planning to build.
Not that early B-17s had very good defensive armament. They just thought that 4 engine 40,000lb planes would be harder to shoot down than twin engined 20-25,000lb planes.
Japanese designed a lot of their fighters to shoot down Japanese style (or German or Soviet or just about anybody else) bombers. Up until 1939 very few people were putting armor or protected tanks in planes.
Going in circles here. P-40s more than tripled the weight of guns and ammo from early 1939 (initial orders) to mid 1940 (orders for the P-40D/E), with very little power increase. The newer US fighters were ordered with even more guns/ammo. Yes, they did take some of the guns and ammo out of the P-40s, both in the factory and in the field to help get around the lack of power problem.
Really
Over boosting the engines at low altitude was only a partial solution. It also only worked, in part, because the British and Americans had other types of fighters to fly top cover for the P-40s.
Really brings up some of the differences in theaters. May also bring out differences in operation and expected engine life and aircraft life.
This has been entertaining so far - keep at it lads, it's like watching angry children fighting in the school yard.
The Forum has already established, in multiple threads, that applying Balkankreuz to any aircraft will immediately improve performance.Maybe it would be better if we started yet another thread about how marvelous the Luftwaffe is?
Dare I step in with my general views. Please note the word GENERAL there will be exceptions.
The problem with light fighters isn't when they were first deployed and entered service, its when the need changes. They tend to be short of something, protection, firepower, range, future development, any one or any combination of these.
The Ki43 has been mentioned and there is no doubt that it is a light fighter. With 2 x HMG it is more than good enough to handle early war fighters and early bombers. However to believe that because it had an occasional good day against B24's that it was good enough to take them on on a regular basis isn't realistic.
There is a reason why Germany went to such lengths to up gun the Fw 190 (which started with 4 x 20mm) and the 109 (which started with 1 x 30 / 20mm and twin HMG). I believe that Japan were trying a Ki43 with twin 20mm s the war closed. and 4 x 20mm was the goal for Japan in the last few months of the war. Clearly they didn't believe that twin HMG was sufficient. Its a personal view that the Ki43 suffered from three of the problems with light fighters namely, protection, firepower and development potential.
The P36 has also been mentioned but it also had similar issues. It lacked growth. I don't know how many times it escorted B24 but I doubt it was common or regular.
Both the P36 and the Ki43 had a very limited ability to increase performance, they were left behind.
In the post war period the Folland Gnat is a good example. It had performance, protection and firepower. The problem was that it had a chronic range issue and lacked further development possibilities. If light was good they would have sold by the bucket full, not the handful.
Going back to WW2, lets compare the Me109 against the Spitfire. You couldn't get two more equal fighters at the start of the war, but the Spit had the development potential, which the 109 lacked due to its smaller size and this showed.
Starting with the 109E3 the firepower went from 2 x 20mm and 2xLMG, to 1 x15mm 2 x LMG (Me109F2) to 1 x 20mm and 2 x HMG (Me109F4 - G), to 1 x 30mm and 2 x HMG. There were attempts to carry underwing cannon but these had a very significant impact on the aircrafts performance and handling. Chances of surviving fighter combat with this loadout were slim, very slim. As a fighter bomber it was normally limited to a 550Ib payload.
Weight of Guns
2 x 20mm FF and 2 x mg17 = 80KG
1 x 20mm Mg151 and 2 x Mg131 = 76KG
1 x 30mm Mk108 and 2 x Mg131 = 94Kg
There was little weight growth in the weapons carried
The Spit went from 8 x Lmg to 4 x 20mm with a number of stages in between. As a fighter bomber 1,000Lb payload was common, as a PR aircraft it had a fabulous range and performance. The 109 equivalent wasn't close.
8 x LMG = 80 KG
2 x 20mm Hispano II and 4 x LMG = 140KG
2 x 20mm Hispano II and 2 x 0.5 hmg = 158KG
Growth almost doubled.
Size may not be everything, but it sure helps.