Long range, high speed Spitfire fighter: the best approach?

[stona]

There is absolutely no point in comparing different aircraft with different fuel tank arrangements. It is only relevant to compare the performance and handling of a particular mark of Spitfire fitted with and without various tank installations.
In this context the "Mustang" is just a red herring.
Cheers
Steve

 

[Edgar Brooks]

Supermarine Spitfire (early Merlin-powered variants) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
n the Mk I PR Type B (also known as Medium Range (MR)) conversions which followed, the F24 camera lenses were upgraded to an eight inch (203 mm) focal length, giving images up to a third larger in scale. An extra 29 gal (132 l) fuel tank was installed in the rear fuselage. It had been envisaged that much larger cameras would be installed in the fuselage immediately behind the pilot, but at the time RAF engineers believed this would upset the Spitfire's centre of gravity. Cotton was able to demonstrate that by removing lead weights, which had been installed in the extreme rear fuselage to balance the weight of the constant speed propeller units, it was possible to install cameras with longer focal-length lens in the fuselage(1).
The Type B was the first to dispense with the heavy bullet resistant windscreen. (2)Many of these early PR Spitfires were fitted with the Merlin XII engine and Rotol constant-speed propeller with the early, blunt spinner of the Spitfire Mk II

Which shows the danger of believing everything on the internet (especially on Wiki.)
(1.) Constant-speed propeller units were not fitted to the Spitfire until July 1940, and Cotton was "relieved of his post" on June 18th., so could not have had anything to do with the C.S. units. V.P. (Variable Pitch, or just two-position) units, quite possibly, but they were quickly made obsolete. The amount of lead removed was 32lbs, around 4 gallons-worth of weight. Remember that Cotton had also already removed the radio, and anything else he considered surplus. It wasn't RAF engineers who advised Cotton against the extra tank, it was a couple of Tedder's technicians; at the time Tedder was Director-General of (the Air Ministry's) Research Development.
(2) The "Type B" was just the original pair of "Type A" airframes N3069 N3071, which, having been supplied in October 1939, never had the bullet-proof glass fitted in the first place
(it first arrived around the time of Dunkirk (read "Fly For Your Life," in which Stanford Tuck relates how his first glass saved his life, over Dunkirk, on the day that it was fitted.)

 

[Mike Williams]

(1.) Constant-speed propeller units were not fitted to the Spitfire until July 1940...,
(2) The "Type B" was just the original pair of "Type A" airframes N3069 N3071, which, having been supplied in October 1939, never had the bullet-proof glass fitted in the first place (it first arrived around the time of Dunkirk (read "Fly For Your Life," in which Stanford Tuck relates how his first glass saved his life, over Dunkirk, on the day that it was fitted.)

Hello Edgar,

A couple of minor quibbles, admittedly not directly related to the thread's central topic. Please see the following regarding constant speed props.

No. 19 Squdron Operations Record Book, 1 November 1939
No. 54 Squadron Operations Record Book, 10 December 1939
Rotol Airscrews for Spitfire, HQ Fighter Command, 16 June 1940
Spitfire Conversion of 2 Pitch De Havilland Airscrews to Constant Speed, HQ Fighter Command, 17 June 1940
Spitfire I fitted with De Havilland Constant Speed Airscrew, 22 June 1940
No. 92 Squadron Operations Record Book, 25 June 1940
No. 609 Squadron Operations Record Book, 26 June 1940
No. 611 Squadron Operations Record Book, 28 June 1940
No. 74 Squadron Operations Record Book, 28 June 1940

Also, Spitfire I N.3171 was delivered 16 November 1939 with a bullet proof windscreen.

 

[Edgar Brooks]

N3171 was a trials aircraft, and had its bullet-proof windscreen fitted 14-2-1940 (Spitfire the History, page 87.)

 

[Edgar Brooks]

No reason not to do it with Spits, as said even a Mk V with a 29 gal rear tank and a drop tank could do a 300 mile combat radius missions.

Thank you for making it plain that you have no interest in a discussion (and learning.) Twice you've been told that a rear tank could not be fitted into the Mk.V (and I've found further confirmation, of this, as late as the end of 1942,) and yet you persist in the same tired old nonsense. I see no point in continuing this farce.

 

[Aozora]

Which shows the danger of believing everything on the internet (especially on Wiki.)
(1.) Constant-speed propeller units were not fitted to the Spitfire until July 1940, and Cotton was "relieved of his post" on June 18th., so could not have had anything to do with the C.S. units. V.P. (Variable Pitch, or just two-position) units, quite possibly, but they were quickly made obsolete.

Wrong - CS Rotol props were fitted to N30 and N31xx serialled Spitfires of 54 and 66 Squadrons in late 1939/early 1940, along with UHF radio units:

KL-O 54 Sqn, possibly N3188 delivered 54 Sqn 21/12/39. Al Deere and Colin Gray both flew Spitfires with CS units over Dunkirk.

Several of the P.R type Bs were conversions of Spitfire Is from the same production batch, and Matusiak 2007, has photos of these aircraft in the book used as a reference.

(2) The "Type B" was just the original pair of "Type A" airframes N3069 N3071, which, having been supplied in October 1939, never had the bullet-proof glass fitted in the first place
(it first arrived around the time of Dunkirk (read "Fly For Your Life," in which Stanford Tuck relates how his first glass saved his life, over Dunkirk, on the day that it was fitted.)

Wrong again. According to Hooton Spitfire Camouflage 1938-1940 (Scale Aircraft Modelling, November 1982) fitting of the BP windscreens started in September 1939. eg Spitfires of 611 Sqn photographed during an open day at Digby, February 1940 (Dr Alfred Price via Scutts):

These weren't "trials aircraft", these were standard, operational Spitfire Is.

 

[Mike Williams]

N3171 was a trials aircraft, and had its bullet-proof windscreen fitted 14-2-1940 (Spitfire the History, page 87.)

Hello Edgar,

Spitfire the History got it wrong way round regarding N.3171's windscreen.

N.3171 first flew on 10 November 1939 and was delivered to Boscombe Down on 16 November 1939. "As delivered, this aeroplane was fitted with a bullet proof windscreen, armour plating over the fuel tank, and a domed top on the sliding hood..."

Please see Flight, March 28, 1940 for a brief mention of "amoured windscreen" and assorted photos with the bullet proof windscreen in evidence. If you look around a bit there are plently of photos of Spitfires equipped with bullet proof windscreens during the winter of 39/40. I would fully expect that the very early Spits that were delivered with the initial style of windscreen would have been retrofitted prior to Dunkirk, such as the case you mention by Tuck. That's an interesting lead worthy of further research.

Nice post Aozoro!

 

[Greyman]

For what it's worth I have a document from Vickers-Armstrongs Ltd. dated 29 Jul 1939 that indicates that the Spitfire's front armour (windscreen, bulkhead armour, petrol tank sheet) will be introduced into production line on N2023 and subsequent aircraft (due for delivery 15 Aug 39). Also 15 sets per week for retrospective fitting starting 10 Aug 39.

 

[Mike Williams]

For what it's worth I have a document from Vickers-Armstrongs Ltd. dated 29 Jul 1939 that indicates that the Spitfire's front armour (windscreen, bulkhead armour, petrol tank sheet) will be introduced into production line on N2023 and subsequent aircraft (due for delivery 15 Aug 39). Also 15 sets per week for retrospective fitting starting 10 Aug 39.

Hello Greyman, That information is worth quite alot from my perspective. Thanks for sharing! Do you have any information on Spitfire Alteration 1/36 - Armour Plating? No. 41 Squadron's Operations Record Book, 23 November 1939 mentions this modification.

 

[Greyman]

Yes that would be the 'front armour' I mentioned. It seems 41 Squadron got their retrospective sets at that time.

 

[Edgar Brooks]

And modification 36; note date of issue. In the Spitfire Mk.I A.P., there's no mention of windscreen or fuel tank deflection armour modifications prior to April 1940:-

 

[Greyman]

And modification 36; note date of issue. In the Spitfire Mk.I A.P., there's no mention of windscreen or fuel tank deflection armour modifications prior to April 1940:-

You can't go by the dates the modifications are officially listed with reference to when the aircraft actually received said modifications. I had this point driven home to me when researching the Hurricane. Official publication dates for obvious things like metal wings and cannon armament were listed well after they were in service.

 

[Greyman]

Aozora, I'm not the strongest student of all things Spitfire and could be mistaken, but some of those propellers in the images appear to be two-pitch airscrews.

 

[F-16]

The Spitfire was one of the best known planes ever, and, especially in the UK, it is still regarded as the best fighter of ww2 by many. However, it was not good in some things: the fuel tankage was modest, even with changes introduced mid-war, and (with Merlin engines, ie. most of the examples produced) it was 'only' as fast as LW opposition, unlike the similarly-engined P-51B/C/D/K.
So what would be your take: what changes to introduce, in order to push the Merlin Spitfire beyond, say, Ruhr, while gaining some speed (in 20000-35000 ft altitude range, focus being 25-30000 ft) in process? We need the plane to be fielded in May/June 1943 at least.

My favorite WW2 plane! I have a model of it in 1:18. But I thought the Zero was the best overall WW2 fighter: faster diving/climbing? Heard that the Spit has still got many world records?

Maybe a different question, but may feed your topic, I ones met a guy who is a Spitfire collector and owns a huge camera which was installed in a Spitfire during the war, was this the first time that a WW2 plane made photos in flight (spyplane)?

 

[Edgar Brooks]

You can't go by the dates the modifications are officially listed with reference to when the aircraft actually received said modifications..

How about the date "cleared" for inclusion on the production line, as written in Vickers' official, original, Spitfire/Seafire modification ledger, at present held in the RAF Museum's library, and which exactly matches that leaflet date?

Wrong - CS Rotol props were fitted to N30 and N31xx serialled Spitfires of 54 and 66 Squadrons in late 1939/early 1940, along with UHF radio units:

Any Rotol props (and there were very few, in fact Supermarine don't list them) fitted to the Mk.I were 2-position, and standard radios were HF or VHF. Rotols were mostly reserved for the Mk.II, since the Merlin XII had a necked-down shaft capable of taking them.

 

[Greyman]

How about the date "cleared" for inclusion on the production line, as written in Vickers' official, original, Spitfire/Seafire modification ledger, at present held in the RAF Museum's library, and which exactly matches that leaflet date?

Same thing. I ran into a lot of examples with the Wellington too. Those official modification dates don't reflect when the aircraft started seeing them in service (note the image Mike Williams linked in post #249).

 

[razor1uk]

1940 was a franetic time for the RAF and the aircraft establishments, where all available aircraft were used or in readiness in some way, and if not, was being repaired, tested, modded or salvaged.

 

[Mike Williams]

You can't go by the dates the modifications are officially listed with reference to when the aircraft actually received said modifications. I had this point driven home to me when researching the Hurricane. Official publication dates for obvious things like metal wings and cannon armament were listed well after they were in service.

Indeed Greyman. That reminds me of another interesting case of a modification being used in service prior to the printed publication date of the mod.

16 February 1940 - 151 Squadron Operations Book, ("100 octane is being used enabling 12 lbs. boost")

20 March 1940 - A.P.1590B/J.2-W, Merlin II and III - Use of +12 Lb./sq.in. Boost Pressure - Alterations and Precautions

 

[Aozora]

Any Rotol props (and there were very few, in fact Supermarine don't list them) fitted to the Mk.I were 2-position, and standard radios were HF or VHF. Rotols were mostly reserved for the Mk.II, since the Merlin XII had a necked-down shaft capable of taking them.

This doesn't account for the fact that the Merlin III was equipped with a universal prop shaft able to take either de H or Rotol props; nor does your claim about the Merlin XII account for the numerous Merlin III powered Rotol equipped Hurricanes that flew before and during the Battle of Britain. As for the claim about the Rotols being two position?

Flight March 1939: note the final introductory paragraph: "Today production is concentrated on constant speed airscrews..."

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1939/1939 - 0834.html

Flight May 1940: note the opening sentence "A new airscrew specifically designed for the fast single-engine fighters of the Royal Air Force...and is also in service with the squadrons."

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1940/1940 - 1504.html

Aozora, I'm not the strongest student of all things Spitfire and could be mistaken, but some of those propellers in the images appear to be two-pitch airscrews.

Hello Greyman; while the 54 Sqn (KL-) Spitfires were fitted with Rotol props, which, btw, seemed to be the 20 deg pitch version described in the 1939 article, the 611 Sqn Spitfires (FY-) were still fitted with the 2 position de H props.

The Flight articles make it clear that Rotol were not manufacturing two speed propellers, which is one reason why there was no need to for a crash conversion program to convert the Rotol props already fitted to Hurricanes to CS. Ergo - any Spitfires fitted with Rotol propellers, including the PR conversions, were fitted with CS units.

 

[Greyman]

Indeed Greyman. That reminds me of another interesting case of a modification being used in service prior to the printed publication date of the mod.

Combing through some more of my stuff and I have a document from Group Captain Saundby (Director of Operational Requirements) dated 3 Oct 1939 stating that 50% of Spitfires in Fighter Command have been armoured and that the rest are expected to be finished by the end of November. Also that production Spitfires are fitted with armour.

This is all in reference to 'front' armour, mind you (bulkhead, petrol tank sheet, windscreen).