Looking for Bf 109 G Start&Notleistung duration

[Yew Staff]

Hello,
I am looking for clues for how long the Start&Notleistung (1.42ata/2800(2700 for the F)) was allowed for the G (and F) versions for the cleared DB605a.
Iam looking for manuals like these from a He-177 (or any other plane that uses the DB605a)

or pictures like these, where the duration is marked on the rpm gauge:

,


Many Thanks

 

[Barrett]

Speaking of starting a 109...

I've told the story before but this thread affords a good reason to share a Gunther Rall story from of one of the symposia we shared. He was asked what I considered a dumb question: how did a mission start in the Luftwaffe? I was going to wave it off when I caught his bright blue eyes.

He said, "Usually I started my motor and when it warmed up I held up both thumbs and the 'black men' (mechs) pulled the chocks so I closed the cabin and took off.

"After Zemke's people shot off my left thumb I held up my right thumb, the man pulled the right chock and I went around in circles!"

 

[Mike Williams]

Fwiw

Bf 109 G-2, G-4, G-6 Bedienungsvorschrift June 43

Bf 109 G4-R3, G6-R3 Bedienungsvorshrift-Fl Feb 1944

 

[Engineman]

Hi Guys,
This is an interesting question that has several answers! Overall, the engine limits for the F, G and K versions of the Bf 109 were in a constant state of change. For example, the engines had many major changes, with 5 complete different types in more than 10 different versions of the engines!
So, Yes, there are differences in the printed documents and, I have not seen all the updated documents in 1943/44/45, I do not think they are all available. However, I will give a short bit of my info. The actual power settings names changed over time as well. Start. und Notleistung was Take-off and Emergency power setting. For the DB 605 A this was initially shown in the Flying Manual as a 1 Minute limit. However, in Summer 1942 shortly after operational introduction of the Bf 109 G, the S.u Not. rating was withdrawn on both the DB 605 and the DB 601 E because of problems with metal quality in the engine and some difficulties with sparkplugs etc. You can see this where the notes on the tables say "ist blockiert", (is blocked). So, not to be used.
This was not sorted until Autumn 1943 when the engine was released with modifications. This Autumn '43 release seems to have included the S. u Not. rating again, but now with a 3 minute time limit, as seen on some instrument panel markings. Later, in early Summer '44, the MW50 modifications were introduced with a full-power rating that allowed 10 minutes at max power with MW50 operation, with 5 min between the next use of MW50.
So, there are the basics, for the DB 605 A, 1 min on very early aircraft until no use above 2600/1.3 for over a year, then on modified engines, 3 min, then with MW50 upto 10 min.

Eng

 

[Yew Staff]

E Engineman
thanks for your explanation.
Yes, I am looking for pictures/manuals that the show the Start&Notleistung rating duration starting second half of 43.
Use of MW-50 was called Sondernotleistung (1.7ata), iirc.

M Mike Williams
many thanks but those manuals list the Start&Notleistung as blocked.
Would it be possible to post both full manuals?

 

[Engineman]

E Engineman
thanks for your explanation.
Yes, I am looking for pictures/manuals that the show the Start&Notleistung rating duration starting second half of 43.
Use of MW-50 was called Sondernotleistung (1.7ata), iirc.

The Documentation for the Bf 109 G-6 etc was already done with the restricted power limitation. The slightly strange thing is that the DB engine documentation does not state the time limits of the Max power rating after the removal of the restriction. However, I can tell you that the DB 605 A Prufdaten as of 11.43 includes a 5 minute testing at 2800/1.42 ! I expect that there was a special amendment somewhere for the revised 3 minute limit at S. u Not for operational use in the aircraft, but I have not seen it written. However, we can see the cockpit markings of 3min and that is conclusive, but not the documentary info that it would be good to see.
Sondernotleistung was later used as the Maximum power setting term and the Start rating was outdated. Also on late engines, Sondernotleistung did not always apply to the use of MW50. On earlier MW50 engine rating documentation, the Start und Notleistung max power term was still used.

Eng

 

[Yew Staff]

A Prufdaten as of 11.43 includes a 5 minute testing at 2800/1.42

Many Thanks E Engineman
Do you happen to have that document and could you post it?

 

[Engineman]

Many Thanks E Engineman
Do you happen to have that document and could you post it?

Possibly. You seem keen on this info, can you say what your interest is?

Eng

 

[Yew Staff]

E Engineman
Yes, course
I stumbled upon that questions in the Forum for the IL-2 game series where the developers decided to go for the 1min time limit for the Start&Ntoleistung engine setting for the cleared DB605a and its been debated there since ~2018 if that is the correct time limit.
Thus far in there seem to be 3 cases for the limit:
a) either no time limit is given
b) use is allowed for a short period of time (no specific time is given)
c) 3min are given (manuals for the HE-177 or pictures of 109 tachometers)

and I am just talking about the time frame, when the cleared Start&Notleistung starts to appear in the second half of 43.

Cheers

 

[Engineman]

Hi. OK. Actually, I did work directly with Oleg Maddox for the original IL-2 data. The game developers did a fair job but, like all games/simulations I have seen of the German engines and propeller systems, the games have certain limitations and problems with understanding the system. I still advise simulation developers today and, despite the fact that I have worked for free, they cannot get the whole thing right! I have never been paid a penny for a lot of work and information and the most I have seen is a thanks on the IL-2 box from Oleg! So, possibly I can come back to this soon and give more info.

Cheers

Eng

 

[Yew Staff]

Many thanks for your insight E Engineman

 

[Yew Staff]

One further example from official german manuals would be:
Bf 109 G-5 Aircraft manual as of August 1943 (issued Sept 1943) D. (Luft) T. 2109 Teil (part) 0. Start&Notleistung cleared, no time limit given.

And D. (Luft) T. 2109 G-5 Teil 8D Sonderwaffenanlage showing the 3min markings and the 30min markings for climb&combat and the one for continious (d) (as of Mai 1944, issued July 1944, p. 10

 

[Yew Staff]

From the German federal archive
Maybe some one has seen similar pictures but with a 1min marking?

 

[Engineman]

Hi, as said before, the 1 min marking might be during the early period of the DB 605 / Bf 109 G before the power limitations and on earlier aircraft.

Eng

 

[Yew Staff]

hej E Engineman
Yeah, maybe the 1min is just for Startleistung (take offe power). Just a thought from my side.
I have never seen a marking with 1min on the instruments, but I thought maybe some else has.
Any chance you cold post the Prufdaten as of 11.43?
Many Thanks in advance.
Cheers

 

[Engineman]

hej E Engineman
Yeah, maybe the 1min is just for Startleistung (take offe power). Just a thought from my side.
I have never seen a marking with 1min on the instruments, but I thought maybe some else has.
Any chance you cold post the Prufdaten as of 11.43?
Many Thanks in advance.
Cheers

Yes, I should be able to put that up.

Eng

 

[Engineman]

Yes, I should be able to put that up.

Eng

Hi,
So here is the page for the testing of the DB 605 A,B,W and X 0 and 1 series, updated to 11.43, document 9-605-6094. You can see on para D the 2800/1.42 is tested for a 5 min segment. That should help.

Cheers

Eng

 

[tomo pauk]

Hi,
So here is the page for the testing of the DB 605 A,B,W and X 0 and 1 series, updated to 11.43, document 9-605-6094. You can see on para D the 2800/1.42 is tested for a 5 min segment. That should help.

Cheers

Eng

Ahem

 

[Snautzer01]

 

[Engineman]

Ta, it fell off somewhere

Eng