Losses in France for British 1940

[The Basket]

Is there a reference for what British forces lost in the invasion of France and the evacuation of Dunkirk? In terms of loss of tanks or rifles or Trucks?
Did the British have enough weapons that if the Germans did invade in force that they could resist?

 

[stona]

Anthony Newbold's thesis "British planning and preparations to resist invasion on land, September 1939 -September 1940" may have some useful information. I haven't read it for a while, but it certainly goes into some considerable detail about what was available in the UK after Dunkirk, if not the specific losses. I'll have a look through when I get a chance.

It used to be available online, but I can't find a link to it.

Edit: Yes, I can

https://kclpure.kcl.ac.uk/portal/files/2928115/DX199711.pdf

Cheers

Steve

 

[pbehn]

To kick off the discussion, from the BBC

BBC - Press Office - Dunkirk facts & figures

• The BEF left the following equipment behind in France, much of it to be recycled by the German Army -
o 2,472 guns
o 63,879 vehicles
o 20,548 motorcycles
o 76,097 tons of ammunition
o 416,940 tons of stores


• 68,111 men of the BEF were captured or killed during Blitzkrieg, retreat and evacuation
• 40,000 French troops were taken into captivity when Dunkirk fell
• 126 merchant seamen died during the evacuation
• Churchill had been Prime Minister for only 16 days when the evacuation began
• The threat of invasion was so real that on 29 May Churchill proposed laying gas along the beaches of the south coast
• 1,000 Dunkirk citizens died during air raids on 27 May
• In the early hours of 29 May the destroyer Wakeful was torpedoed and sank in 15 seconds with the loss of 600 lives
• 47,081 men embarked from the mole during the devastating air raid of 1 June

 

[stona]

• 47,081 men embarked from the mole during the devastating air raid of 1 June

One feels almost churlish busting the myth of the 'little ships' which is a wonderful story.
Officially 239,555 were evacuated from the harbour and 98,671 from the beaches.
Of these 5,031 returned in 'private motor boats', 4,895 in 'yachts' a total of 9,926. The raw figures overlook the shuttle services run by some of these small vessels to larger vessels lying off shore.
The majority returned in transports ('personnel vessels') and RN destroyers and torpedo boats, a total of 190,753.
The balance was made up by 'trawlers and drifters' and 'minesweepers (large)'
Cheers
Steve

 

[pbehn]

I agree Steve but the port was jammed and many soldiers were exhausted or injured. I used to have the idea of the beach as a UK holiday beach where you can see both ends, the beaches around Calais Dunkirk Depanne are pretty much continuous, like a sand flat.

 

[stona]

I agree Steve but the port was jammed and many soldiers were exhausted or injured.

I agree that many would have been exhausted and not a few dejected, but according to the official figures only 6,981 of those taken off were wounded. The rest, French and British were, officially at least, 'fit'.

Figures do vary, the lowest total I have to hand is 316,663 evacuated, the highest 338,226. I'm sure others give other numbers, which is why I never get bothered much by some variation. You pay your money and you take your pick

Cheers

Steve

 

[The Basket]

I will assume a few things

All the heavy equipment in France and Belgium was lost.
No attempt was made to recover any heavy equipment.

It would be interesting to put a monetary value on equipment lost and how much of a percentage of overall equipment was lost and whether the UK could have fought a worst case scenario German invasion with what the had left.

 

[stona]

It would be interesting to put a monetary value on equipment lost and how much of a percentage of overall equipment was lost and whether the UK could have fought a worst case scenario German invasion with what the had left.

Newbold's paper covers the plans to counter an invasion. They were many, and changed as the situation on the continent changed.
Cheers
Steve

 

[pbehn]

I will assume a few things

All the heavy equipment in France and Belgium was lost.
No attempt was made to recover any heavy equipment.

It would be interesting to put a monetary value on equipment lost and how much of a percentage of overall equipment was lost and whether the UK could have fought a worst case scenario German invasion with what the had left.

In the immediate days after the evacuation the UK was in no position to resist invasion on the land, fortunately Germany was in no position to mount one.

A lot of information here

British Equipment losses at Dunkirk and the situation post Dunkirk

 

[stona]

For all that I would just mention that on 10th August, at the height of so called 'invasion fever' the decision was taken to reinforce the Middle East from the resources of Home Forces.
Cheers
Steve

 

[The Basket]

Did the RAF attempt any kind of airlift?
Probably not in daylight but a few nightime trips?

 

[stona]

Did the RAF attempt any kind of airlift?

Not as part of an organised evacuation.
As it withdrew to the UK it destroyed any aircraft left behind. There's even a picture taken at Merville by none other than Heinrich Hoffmann which shows the tail of a burnt out Armstrong Whitworth Ensign in civilian markings (registration G-ADSZ), operated by BOAC. It was supposedly destroyed in a landing at Merville after being damaged by Bf 109s whilst on a scheduled flight!
Cheers
Steve

 

[pbehn]

RAF groundcrew and aircrew without a plane who couldn't steal one went back by boat so I don't suppose any airlift was done.

 

[The Basket]

How did Operation Ariel compare?
Odd to talk about evacuation of the British army in France. Hadn't finished yet.
Another odd story is that a number of the evacuated French were sent back.

 

[pbehn]

How did Operation Ariel compare?
Odd to talk about evacuation of the British army in France. Hadn't finished yet.
Another odd story is that a number of the evacuated French were sent back.

The French were not sent back, they had a right to go back to continue the fight or at least be at home. They were taken back on vessels that were bringing British servicemen and others out from France.

 

[The Basket]

Sent back? Carried on the fight on home soil.
A better phrase.
Dunkirk ended 4th June and France didn't surrender until 22 June.
The Lancastria was sunk on 17th June. So Dunkirk was not the end of the evacuation.

In the later evacs it does seem to show an attempt of taking heavy equipment.

 

[pbehn]

Sent back? Carried on the fight on home soil.
A better phrase.
Dunkirk ended 4th June and France didn't surrender until 22 June.
The Lancastria was sunk on 17th June. So Dunkirk was not the end of the evacuation.

In the later evacs it does seem to show an attempt of taking heavy equipment.

Operation Ariel - Wikipedia

This shows some of the efforts, not included there was 185Kgs of heavy water flown out in jerry cans.
Operation Big

 

[The Basket]

I guess 185kg of water is quite heavy. Norway was occupied so a moot point perhaps.
So one of the myths of Dunkirk is the escape of the British army when in fact British army units were still being put in France. And because of the perhaps massive loss of life on the Lancastria things were hushed up. And the news was hidden under the surrender of France.

 

[stona]

This shows some of the efforts, not included there was 185Kgs of heavy water flown out in jerry cans.
Operation Big

"Lew Kowarski, a scientist at the Joliot-Curie laboratory in Paris, convinced Joliot by January 1940 that using heavy water as a moderator was the only practical way to achieve sustainable nuclear fission."

Oh well, you can't be right about everything .

Cheers

Steve

 

[stona]

I would suggest that the loss of vehicles was at least as urgently felt as the loss of weapons.Most competent commanders knew that any defence against an invasion depended on mobility, as Brooke noted in August.

A certain then Lieutenant General Montgomery, never one shy of blowing his own trumpet, took credit for developing this idea in his own area of influence, writing in his memoirs long after the events

The shortage of transport to provide the necessary mobility was acknowledged and understood at the time and promoted much debate.

Cheers

Steve