Luftwaffe Cannons and Machineguns topic.

[Stephen Best]

This should be an easy one for the experts amongst you - I have been given a couple of 'bullets' to identify, they are 15mm dia, 25.5mm long with a 9mm hollow at the cartridge end, weigh 31g and are lead. They were found deep in the ground, close together. It's a long shot - literally - but there was an air raid on the local railway station here in Castle Cary, Somerset, on September 3rd 1942. Four 500kg bombs were dropped causing a fair bit of damage, and there were reports of strafing and 10 injured, three dead. The bullets were unearthed during gas mains laying, only 1/2 mile or so from the station. Could they possibly be technically linked to German aircraft that were capable of delivering 500 kg bombs ? Looking forward to learning loads !!

 

[Denniss]

If from late 1942 it would rule out fighters as they had 20mm guns then. 15mm MG 151 were used in some Do 217 and they typically carried 500kg (or heavier) bombs.

 

[tyrodtom]

That has the approximate deminsions and weight of a .577 cal Enfield minie ball. In other words it may have been in the ground a lot longer than WW2.

 

[Shortround6]

I would second Tyrodtom. You have the weight, shape and material of the .577 cal Enfield minie ball.

 

[Stephen Best]

Steep learning curve, thanks ! Just Googled images of the Enfield Minie Ball and I reckon that's the id. taken care of. Cheers.

 

[Stephen Best]

Calibre means dia. of bullet, not cartridge ? (Please forgive the beginner here). The Minie ball is reported as .771 calibre - I have a round musket ball that matches that measurement - these two finds are .600, or 15mm +- due to distortions. I'll agree, they look like Minie's, but seem a bit too small. 31g, and only 25.5 mm long.

 

[tyrodtom]

Caliber means diameter of bullet, when talking about ammunition. There are many different minie ball sizes out there, not just one.
I recconized that because i've seen a Enfield minie ball from the American Civil War. It was called .58 caliber but was actually .577.
.58 caliber was a common size of that era.

The weight, diameter, and lenght of you specimine is very close to a .577 Enfield.
It's almost certainly not later because later military firearms never fired unjacketed lead bullets.

 

[undu562]

Here is the MG 15 magazine bracket for the Storch.

Best U

Collecting Luftwaffe technical parts 39-45.

 

[Yeomans]

Can anyone help identify this part ? Calibre is 7.91. Could it be the feed from the MG 81 ?

 

[CharlesBronson]

Sorry, in my opinion is too destroyed to provide a good identification.

Here is the MG 15 magazine bracket for the Storch.

thanks for the pic and photo.

 

[looney]

What are the dimensions of a MG15 Sadle Magazine?

 

[capun]

I don't know if this is the correct thread to ask this question. I glanced through the thread but could not find the data I am looking for.
I need the actual ammo load for the Bf-109E-1 nose and wing guns. Some books and internet site say 1000 rpg for the nose guns, some say 500 rpg. Wing gun ammo loads are quoted as either 420 or 500 rpg. The Bf-109C/D Nose guns are supposed to be 500 rpg and AFIK it was carried over into the E-1.
Thanks

 

[Shortround6]

Some data sheets give 1000rpg for the fuselage guns, this being cut to 500rpg when a gun was fitted to fire through the propeller shaft, which was not often, if ever on the E series.

Wing guns are listed at 500rpg on the E-1.

 

[Denniss]

1000 rounds per fuselage mounted MG 17 in the E-series, it was the F-series reducing that to 500.
Wing MG 17 = 500 rounds per gun.

 

[tomo pauk]

Don't want to start another thread, this should fit here nicely. The translations on the pic (open it separately for hi res) is by your's truly.

 

[Sheniloiu]

Hy, guys! I'm new here and although I followed your posts i still have some questions about the MG 151/20:
- the gun could be fed alternatively from left or right or just from one side?
- the ammo belt was pulled mechanically (by recoil forces) or electrically?
Thanks for answering!

 

[Sheniloiu]

O, and something else. During the summer of 1979 I was following courses of a military school and while I was in a firing range I've seen a Rheinmetall MG adapted to fire from a mechanical instalation of a bunker. The gun had the double saddle drum of the MG 17 and, if memory serves me right, the receiver and the grip were similar. There was no stock. But the MG was water cooled and so far I've never found information about such an MG 17 derivative!

 

[Hideyoshi]

Empty.

 

[Hideyoshi]

Hello there, I'm new in the community.

I hope this thread stills active since I am still impressed by the clear information about German aircraft machineguns and cannons and I'd certainly like to ask many things. I must congratulate Charles Bronson for the time and effort spent in this topic.

My first question is if the Luftwaffe or the Kriegsmarine tested on their bombers and submarines/ships/S-boats respectively, the Rheinmetall-Borsig Mk 108 cannon in turret placements (remote controlled).

I must confess that I'm asking this, not because I'm an instructed person in these gun matters, but for the reason of some very interesting information I had read in a World-War-Two-set historical novel called "Operación Hagen" (Operation Hagen in English) written by the British/Spanish Author Felipe Botaya, a bussinessman, teacher, lecturer and historical researcher (this one in his free time).

Just to give a brief account of the novel, I'll say it's about the Nazi atomic program (there were three according to the book) led by Doctor SS General Hans Kammler. The Novel describes using some historical facts and most of the times just non-official ones, the truly first nuclear attack on enemy territory during the war by the Germans, using a modified He 177 V-38 (the enigmatic atomic variant of this superb bomber), at Tunguska, Siberia on February 23, 1945.

The part which drawn my attention the most was that this bomber (always, according to the book) had a very rare and I'd say devastating defensive system consisting in five
Rheinmetall-Borsig Mk 108 cannons installed this way:

• One cannon on the middle upper part of the bomber, behind the gunner's plexiglas canopy, with 360º horizontal rotation moving capability and 180º vertical rotation moving capability (the book doesn't especify the moving capabilities of this cannon, but it seems pretty obvious to me that they were 360º horizontal and 180º vertical. Those who are keen on German aircraft guns in turret installments, please correct me if I could be wrong).

• One cannon on the lower part of the bomber, under the pilot and copilot, with 180º horizontal rotation moving capability and 90º vertical rotation moving capability, pneumatic-pedal-fired from the cockpit. In case of attack, the pilot would use it, defending the front part of the bomber (the book again, doesn't especify the moving capabilities of this cannon, but in my opinion, it's likely to be 180º horizontal and 90º vertical).

• One cannon just behind the previous one described above, defending the lower back part of the bomber, in case of being attacked, this cannon was meant to be used by the radar operator, with 180º horizontal moving capability and 90º vertical moving capability (yes, the book states this).

• Two cannons as twins in the tail of the bomber (replacing the manned MG 131) inside a bulletproof (steel?) dome, with 180º horizontal rotation moving capability and 90º vertical rotation moving capability (again, the books states this) . In case of attack, these cannons (called Mk108Z on the book) were meant to be controlled by the gunner seated under the plexiglas canopy behind the pilot, copilot and radar operator. The book also states that their remote control firing system was a specially-adapted FDL-131/Z, made by the AEG company exclusively for this bomber. It also adds that these cannons (the "twin" Mk 108 called Mk 108Z) were controlled by "servo-engines" (direct translation from the Spanish "servo-motores", not sure if it's 100% correct) from the gunner's plexiglas canopy, behind the pilots, by means of a pedal that the gunner should use.

All five cannons counted with moving sensors so they could follow enemy fighters trajectories and their firing would be activated by compressed air.

As you may see, it's quite an indomitable beast (the defensive system of course), and since I've bought the novel back in 2013, it stills amazes me ...

It'll be great to know if the Germans led experiments in which Mk 108 cannons were used as defensive devices in turrents for bombers. Maybe Charles, you'll be able to throw some light on this point.

As a plus, I'll add to this comment soon, a quick sketch I made of this He 177 atomic variant, detailing the location of each main component (including of course the location of the Mk 108 turrets).

Here's the sketch I made (sorry for it's low quality, I will try to upload another one which will be better than this):

About the Rheinmetall-Borsig Mk 108 being used by the Kriegsmarine, I'll say that in another novel by the same author (Antártida 1947), which tells us about Operation Highjump being really a military operation to destroy the enigmatic Base 211, supposedly the Nazis' last military redouct, I've read that Type XXI submarines used two moving turrets each containing from two to three Mk 108 cannons ... is this an historical fact?

And also, was the Kriegsmarine trying to use the Mk 108 cannon as a possible defensive device on their warships, S-boats or even patrol boats?

Once again, I'd like to thank you for the big amount of information about German aircraft guns, and I hope you can answer my questions. Thanks.

 

[tomo pauk]

Got to admit that I've never heard about the MK 108 as a bomber defensive weapon. Perhaps it is the MK 103 (the He 177 carried the twin installation under nose)?

The Kriegsmarine was to use the MK 303 on the subs, featuring a very powerful 30x210 cartridge, but the development was not completed before the ww2 ended. Several U-boats carried the MK 103?