Luftwaffe Cannons and Machineguns topic.

[CharlesBronson]

Mauser MK 212 30mm.

I found a little of information about this model. 3 prototypes were made in 1942/3, one of them was installed between the V of the DB 603 inside the Me-309 in august 1942.
The gun principle of operation was a combination of short recoil and gas, the rate of fire was 600 rpm. Overall length about 1550 mm with a 1000 mm barrel. The cartridge case lenght was pretty much the same as in the MK 108 but the shape was bottle-necked so it housed more propellant, allowing 18 % higher muzzle velocity. ( 580-585 mps)

The gun installed weight (without ammo) was 71 kilos. I have no idea wich was the big advantage of the MK 108 over this Mauser cannon but is quite clear that the RLM favoured the Rheinmetall Borsig design, relegating the MK 212 as an experimental gun only .

 

[looney]

most interesting is the drawing of the shell it shows changes in measurement

 

[razor1uk]

It has a very short cartridge, verses bullet/shell length incomparison to other German designs, I can sort of see why it might have been left as an experimental weapon.

 

[CharlesBronson]

It was a good slution by Mauser, a better round not bulky at all. Mr Tony Williams has a picture of the MK 212 cartrigde case in his website and is quoted as 30x91 so the same lenght of the Rheinmetall MK 108.

First from the left

 

[CharlesBronson]

Mauser MK 214 ( Amendment )

Some corrections on my earlier post about this maschinenkanone.

-The feed was by means of a heavy desintegrating metallic belt.

-Correct rate of fire was 160 rpm

-Electro-pneumatic feeding used by the BK 5 was completely discarded in this massive gun. The cartrigdes were feed by sliding/rotating cams working with the gun recoil.

Some more photos:

 

[looney]

I would love to see an animation of it's action

 

[Civettone]

As a side note last week I was reading up on Japanese aircraft guns and I was surprised to see with what they came up with. Their 30+ mm cannons had the best specs of any country. Some say they incorporated lessons learned from the Germans. And yet their weapons were no copies.

I am sure Tony can say more about them.

Kris

 

[CharlesBronson]

The japanese 30mm guns family was quite good but they arrived too late to see a good deal of service. No worry Ill start some topic on japanese weapons this days.

I would love to see an animation of it's action

Some squematics of the fuctioning inside the MK 214 might help

 

[Kurfürst]

No worry Ill start some topic on japanese weapons this days.

Something on the Japanese recoilless(? something along these line) 40 mm cannon would be lovely indeed!

 

[sbl11]

does anybody know anything about the guns sent to the Japanese air force?

 

[sbl11]

does anyone have information on the transactions or documents of parts sent to japan? I know they sent the mg-15 and a few other designs, but don't know much more than that.

 

[CharlesBronson]

The Rheinmetall MG 15 and Mg 131 were made under license for the Japanese Navy. Also Mauser sold 800 MG 151/20 cannons with 400,000 rounds of ammunition. I have no more data on plans, licenses or other designs.

 

[lkps101]

Hi, I was wondering if anyone has any information or pictures on how the MG-15 looked when double/twin mounted side by side. Was there only one handle/grip, or were both guns' grips kept in place for use during firing? And was the actual mount adapted from some other type of gun mount, and was this twin mount pretty rare? I don't seem to be able to find any photos of it.

 

[CharlesBronson]

The MG 15 was not used as an double gun, the MG 81 was. Check page 1 and 2.

 

[lkps101]

The MG 15 was not used as an double gun, the MG 81 was. Check page 1 and 2.

On the Internet Movie Firearm database, a weapon used in the film "Raiders of the Last Ark" is ID'ed as a dual MG-15, used on a fake Luftwaffe plane. While the gun does indeed seem to be an MG 81Z (barrels aren't MG15), the saddle drum on it seems to be a Doppeltrommel 15 (yes, completely inaccurate due to MG 81's different belt feed mechanism), which were used exclusively on the MG 15.

The big question is this saddle drum seen in the film is wider than normal and seems specifically designed for a dual mount. Maybe it was built/adapted for the movie, but it seems authentic (it's seen very up close.) Patronentrommels, which look very similar to the older DT15's, are unlikely to have had a dual mount/wider variation given the ground infantry gun it was redesigned for, MG 34.

If that magazine is real (which it seems to be), would it suggest MG 15's were sometimes used in dual mount config?

 

[Shortround6]

It might also suggest that the movie prop makers were good.

The real magazine held 75 rounds for a gun that cycled 1000rpm or about 16-17rounds per second. About 4.5 seconds of firing time.

Spreading the drums out is only going to add a few rounds in the horizontal section of the magazine if that. What you have, basically is 1/2 of the magazine feeding each barrel for a firing time of 2.25-2.5 seconds. While a dual gun puts out a lot of bullets that is also a lot of magazine changes. Having an empty gun does no good when the second or third enemy plane makes it's attack run.

 

[lkps101]

It might also suggest that the movie prop makers were good.

The real magazine held 75 rounds for a gun that cycled 1000rpm or about 16-17rounds per second. About 4.5 seconds of firing time.

Spreading the drums out is only going to add a few rounds in the horizontal section of the magazine if that. What you have, basically is 1/2 of the magazine feeding each barrel for a firing time of 2.25-2.5 seconds. While a dual gun puts out a lot of bullets that is also a lot of magazine changes. Having an empty gun does no good when the second or third enemy plane makes it's attack run.

I found a pic of the MG 81 zwilling in Air and Space Museum colection, card on it reads "the only German machine gun of World War II to be fitted to a twin mounting."

I did find a pic of side by side mounted MG 34's, but they seemed like they were two separate guns on one tripod (very tiny pic.)

And re: MG15, 4.5 seconds of firing time is pretty amazing - even with the rapid change capability they had on MG 15 (under 6 secs or something) it still must have been bad news.

And I originally thought it was 150 rounds but 75 is correct - they must have carried a couple dozen of those saddle drums...

Thanks for clarifying this.

 

[CharlesBronson]

There was zwilling mounting for the MG 34 but that was used as antiaircraft gun by the German army only.

 

[Tzaw1]

The description of the upper turret of the Arado 232 B-0 (in document and movie incorrectly Ar 332).
And movie:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K62nZcruqlk
Both russian.

 

[CharlesBronson]

Thanks Tzaw but the dejavus are a bit complicated...no chance to put it in pdf?