Luftwaffe Cannons and Machineguns topic.

CharlesBronson · Aug 14, 2008

Dusenkanone Duka 88.

Originally a Kriegsmarine projekt in 75mm the duka 88 was designed as a electric motor actuated, drum magazine type cannon.

The 88 mm tube was feed by a rotating 10 shot magazine, the electric motor rotate the drum 36 degrees after every shot presenting the fresh cartrigde in front the chamber , loading it and closing the breech. The heavy recoil was alleviated in part by means of two nozzles venting the gasses backwards, one in the top and other in lower fuselage.

Data: Caliber 88 mm, cadence 10 shot/min, mass ~1000 kg and length 4705 mm.

Muzzle velocity : 765 m/s.

Armor penetration: 90 mm at 1500 meters.

CharlesBronson · Oct 27, 2008

MG 15, 7.92mm flexible machinegun. Images of the Spanish Air Force handbook.

SoD Stitch · Oct 27, 2008

CB - Can you tell us anything about the Mauser MG 213? I understand it was a very advanced cannon, and just missed seeing service before the War ended.

CharlesBronson · Oct 27, 2008

Yes, I can.

Mauser MG 213, revolver gun.

In late november 1942 the german RLM ( Reichs air ministry) came out with a very surprising requeriment.
This was one for a 20 mm gun with a rate of fire of 1000 rpm, and with a muzzle speed no less than 1000 meters per second.

This was nearly a shock for the german designers, although there was guns capable to reach and surpass the 1000 rpm in its rate of fire that were small calibre machineguns. In the other way there was some cannon with the requested high muzzle velocity like the 2 cm Flak 30/38, but its mechanims was completely unable to reach the requested rate of fire.

This 1000 x1000 design gun was delivered to Krieghoff and Mauser. HASAG was in charge to develop the ammunition.
Krieghoff designed a experimental weapon using the gas operation, that was MG 301.

Mauser in the other hand understood that the standar gas or recoil systems were not useful in this very high rate of fire weapon, and they used the revolver gun instead.

The revolver gun was not actually a new idea, there was experiments with this type of mechanism since the XVIII century, however the Mauser technicians were the first to achieve a superb aircraft weapon.

How the revolving gun works ( extract from The machine Vol III, J.M Chinn and a cutaway view of the MG 213)

CharlesBronson · Oct 27, 2008

Fortunatelly for the allied air forces the Mauser MG 213 never achieved operational status, like many other german weapons came too late. However the technological breakthrough of the Mauser technicians was amazing. The DEFA-GIAT, ADEN and several US made aircraft cannon are the direct descendant of this german design.

3 more images,

a) 20 and 30 mm variants compared

b) General view of the 20mm variant

c) Blohm Voss projekt of jet fighter with 6 x MG 213 30 mm

kool kitty89 · Nov 3, 2008

The comment about the "1000x 1000" performance not being obtainable by a "conventional" mechanism, isn't entirely true. There was a wartime version of the British Hispano that was sped up to ~1,000 rpm (and would have reached ~1,000 m/s wit the lighter German projectiles) but was not selected for production due significant changes to the parts.

Likewise, the post war Colt Mk.12 of the USN (a development of the Hispano) fired at 1,000 rmp with a velocity of over 1,000 m/s.

I think this would pretty much be the limit though, and the MG 213 (and USAF M39) both performed signifcantly better still, albeit at greater weight. (and somewhat greater bulk)

CharlesBronson · Nov 3, 2008

The comment about the "1000x 1000" performance not being obtainable by a "conventional" mechanism, isn't entirely true. There was a wartime version of the British Hispano that was sped up to ~1,000 rpm (and would have reached ~1,000 m/s wit the lighter German projectiles) but was not selected for production due significant changes to the parts.

Likewise, the post war Colt Mk.12 of the USN (a development of the Hispano) fired at 1,000 rmp with a velocity of over 1,000 m/s.

That is 100 % correct, my comment was more related to the fact the germans didnt have at that time a 20 mm capable to reach 1000 rounds per minute. Probably they have some experimental gun but no one in service at 1942 with that rate of fire.

Junkers88A1 · Nov 3, 2008

i have this 30mm german shell from WW2..do you know what gun its from ??
its 100% from a aircraft..just not sure about what gun

kool kitty89 · Nov 3, 2008

It looks like a 30x90RB of the MK 108.

An introduction to collecting 30 mm cannon ammunition

Komet weapons: MK 108 cannon

Junkers88A1 · Nov 3, 2008

thanks ))

Junkers88A1 · Nov 3, 2008

lots of nice info there

CharlesBronson · Nov 3, 2008

It seems a explosive with self destruction shell.
For more about the MK 108 ammo, here:

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/we...nons-machineguns-topic-6368-7.html#post263458

Junkers88A1 · Nov 3, 2008

on the head it says ZZ 1589 B279 exw 44

the bottom read 754 CUX

a lot of interesting reading there i ahve a bunch of early 20mm MGFF bullets and 13mm MG 131 but thisone has been "outside" the box for a while and i have never known much from the guns above Mg 151..

kool kitty89 · Nov 3, 2008

Looking at the above page I posted from Tony Williams site reminded me of another weapon I don't think has been brought up: the 30 mm Mauser MK 212 compeitor to the MK 108.

Any info?

CharlesBronson · Nov 3, 2008

on the head it says ZZ 1589 B279 exw 44

the bottom read 754 CUX

The ZZ is very likely to means Zerleger and Zünder, selfdestructive and Fuze.
Number 44 is probably for 1944.

I don't think has been brought up: the 30 mm Mauser MK 212 compeitor to the MK 108.

Any info?

I only know that was recoil operated, but I didnt find a single picture of the gun itself.

CharlesBronson · Nov 26, 2008

MG 17 handbook pictures:

Some pictures of the handbook MG 17 7,92mm machinegun for the Ejercito del aire (Spanish Air Force) including the synchronization gear.

Micdrow · Nov 27, 2008

Very interesting drawins there Charles, many thanks.

CharlesBronson · Nov 27, 2008

You are welcomed, the book is in a sorry state but the info is still good.

Burmese Bandit · Dec 5, 2008

I have browsed this thread for a long, long time before I came to this forum, and this thread is one of the strongest reasons why I did. Thanks to Bronson and all the other serious gun dudes who know their stuff, and are patient and kind enough to explain it to all!!!

CharlesBronson · Dec 5, 2008

You are welcomed BB, doing my best here. 8)

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