MACCHI C205 Compared to Fiat G.55
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Hello Nuuumannn,
The Macchi C.202 Folgore actually had an oil cooler configuration that resembled the G55 / Me 109.
This particular C.205 Veltro appears from the non-retractable tail wheel to be a conversion of a C.202 airframe.
The retractable tailwheel when on C.205 tended to give trouble, so after the war when some of the remaining airframes were converted (re-engine) to C.205 standards for export, this was not something they attempted to alter.
I believe that all surviving C.205 today are actually C.202 conversions.
- Ivan.
The Macchi C.202 Folgore actually had an oil cooler configuration that resembled the G55 / Me 109.
This particular C.205 Veltro appears from the non-retractable tail wheel to be a conversion of a C.202 airframe.
The retractable tailwheel when on C.205 tended to give trouble, so after the war when some of the remaining airframes were converted (re-engine) to C.205 standards for export, this was not something they attempted to alter.
I believe that all surviving C.205 today are actually C.202 conversions.
- Ivan.
Afaik no Italian fighter excelled at rate of roll (which might be possible to rectify). That is where the Fw 190d is better, which is a factor of agility like turn rate. While the G.56 was said to be as good a turner as the Spitfire, the Dora is no slouch either, at least at high speed combat late war. The Dora should dive better because of higher weight and wing load.
Don't know for sure about climb. The G.56 would be in the vicinity of the Spitfire Mk XIV but the D-9 is also a very good climber, not much behind.
So I would rate the Fw 190D and G.56 fairly even in a fight.
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The C.202 Folgore had an oil cooler like a Messerschmitt 109.
The C.205 Veltro had the twin barrel oil coolers a higher rated engine, retractable tailwheel and often carried heavier wing armament than the more typical two rifle caliber MG wing guns on the C.202. I believe the most typical armament was a pair of 20 mm cannon in the wings.
The airframes were basically identical otherwise. An unusual feature of these aeroplanes is that one wing is longer than the other to address engine torque issues.
- Ivan.
Thanks for that Ivan, did not know it was a C.202 converted. It certainly is different from the C.202, of which I'll post a few pics, and it is so modified to be externally indistinguishable from an actual C.205. On the C.205 the tailwheel wasn't fully retractable like on the Fiat; it was semi-retractable and protruded from the bottom of the fuse, so on that aircraft, the tailwheel layout is accurate.
The C.205V did have the two barrel coolers.
Yes, it is!
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Hello Nuuumannn,
Attached are a couple photographs that sort of show the difference in the tail wheel setup.
The problem with photographs is that there are no original C.205 that survive today and photographs would be from the war.
Note the shape of the fairing in front of the tail wheel on the original C.205 as compared to the C.202 conversion.
If it is longer front to rear than top to bottom, it is probably a C.205. C.202 fairings are longer top to bottom.
The C.205 has a couple doors which partially cover the retracted tail wheel but often the doors are hard to see in photographs.
If it started life as a C.202, it could have a fairing in front or not at all and sometimes they also have a small fairing behind the wheel as well.
The aft fairing is where the wheel well would be for the retracted gear on a C.205, so you should never see an original C.205 with one.
The drawing should give a more clear idea of what the thing SHOULD look like.
- Ivan.
Attachments
Yup. I understand Ivan; taking a look at a book I bought from the museum, it appears that C.202s were converted to resemble C.205s either on the productionline or in service, which is peculiar. Egypt received C.202s, which had been converted to C.205s and thus share the same fairing on the tailwheel, as did the AMI, but I can't find a picture of an AMI one. Here's an Egyptian one with a description:
http://img.wp.scn.ru/camms/ar/908/pics/198_3.jpg
So, whilst the museum aircraft might appear to be inaccurate, it isn't, as it is indeed a C.202 converted to a C.205 as it appeared in service, not just a difference brought about by the conversion carried out for the museum. Nonetheless, the C.205's tailwheel was semi retractable, unlike the Fiat's. Here's a Luftwaffe one clearly showing the tail wheel hanging out.
Macchi C.205 - Wikipedia
Here's what Wiki says about these conversions:
"During 1948–1949, Egypt received 62 refurbished C.205Vs, of which 41 were converted from C.202 airframes. In May 1948, eight C.205V and 16 C.202 were upgraded and in February 1949, three brand new and 15 ex-MC.202, and in May another 10 MC.205 and 10 MC.202 were upgraded. This last contract was not finalized and, given the end of the Israeli War of Independence (1948–49), the fighters were delivered to Aeronautica Militare Italiana (AMI). Egypt also ordered 19 G.55s and Syria another 16, all new-built.
The new Veltros were fully equipped, while the Folgore conversions were armed with only two 12.7 mm Breda machine guns. They were the lightest series of the entire production, and consequently had the best performance, but were seriously under-armed. A total of 15 Macchis were delivered to Egypt before the end of the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, seeing brief combat against the Israeli Air Force."
Here is the C.202 in the museum. The tail wheel has no fairing!
C.202 tail
From the front it shows the neater nasal features.
C.202 nose
And for you, Schweik, the museum's S.79 - a real beauty.
S.79
http://img.wp.scn.ru/camms/ar/908/pics/198_3.jpg
So, whilst the museum aircraft might appear to be inaccurate, it isn't, as it is indeed a C.202 converted to a C.205 as it appeared in service, not just a difference brought about by the conversion carried out for the museum. Nonetheless, the C.205's tailwheel was semi retractable, unlike the Fiat's. Here's a Luftwaffe one clearly showing the tail wheel hanging out.
Macchi C.205 - Wikipedia
Here's what Wiki says about these conversions:
"During 1948–1949, Egypt received 62 refurbished C.205Vs, of which 41 were converted from C.202 airframes. In May 1948, eight C.205V and 16 C.202 were upgraded and in February 1949, three brand new and 15 ex-MC.202, and in May another 10 MC.205 and 10 MC.202 were upgraded. This last contract was not finalized and, given the end of the Israeli War of Independence (1948–49), the fighters were delivered to Aeronautica Militare Italiana (AMI). Egypt also ordered 19 G.55s and Syria another 16, all new-built.
The new Veltros were fully equipped, while the Folgore conversions were armed with only two 12.7 mm Breda machine guns. They were the lightest series of the entire production, and consequently had the best performance, but were seriously under-armed. A total of 15 Macchis were delivered to Egypt before the end of the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, seeing brief combat against the Israeli Air Force."
Here is the C.202 in the museum. The tail wheel has no fairing!
From the front it shows the neater nasal features.
And for you, Schweik, the museum's S.79 - a real beauty.
Hello Nuuumannn,
Thanks for the details. I have a suspicion that the C.202 Folgore in your photographs was actually pieced together from parts.
The propeller spinner on that aircraft looks like it came from a C.205 Veltro. The original C.202 spinner is a bit more angular and pointy.
I may be incorrect, but that is the way it looks to me.
I don't know if the tail wheel fairings were more or less common in the field, but that is how they came from the factory.
This photograph is of the one in the NASM in Washington DC.
- Ivan.
Thanks for the details. I have a suspicion that the C.202 Folgore in your photographs was actually pieced together from parts.
The propeller spinner on that aircraft looks like it came from a C.205 Veltro. The original C.202 spinner is a bit more angular and pointy.
I may be incorrect, but that is the way it looks to me.
I don't know if the tail wheel fairings were more or less common in the field, but that is how they came from the factory.
This photograph is of the one in the NASM in Washington DC.
- Ivan.
What museum is that, is it in Italy? Magnificent Sparviero, I think I see some other Savoia Marchietti and CANT bombers there too... SM 82, CANT 506?
It is the one and only Museo Storico Dell'Aeronautica Militare on the shore of Lake Bracchiano north of Rome. Such an awesome museum with a breathtaking collection. You'll have to excuse me photobombing this (and other) thread with images from the museum, it's a great place. And, yes, SM.82 and Z.506 Airone, which, I believe is the largest surviving float plane, as opposed to flying boat, left. Other WW2 stuff on display includes a Fiat CR.42, world's only surviving IMAM Ro.43 ship based recon biplane, Macchi C.200, as well as Fiat G.59, Fiat G.46, Caproni Campini mixed propulsion turbojet... The list goes on. I'll open a thread on the museum soon, but I'm busy with other stuff right now.
Yes, Ivan, you could be right regarding the C.202, although I haven't looked at the two closely. It's common for museums to do this. The RAF Museum's sole surviving complete Hawker Typhoon's spinner is originally from an Avro Shackleton, which has four blades, so the holes were blanked out and new ones cut! I've been to the NASM and seen their Macchi. great place, too.
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Hello Nuuumannn,
The main reason why I have been collecting information about the Macchi C.202 and C.205 is that a few years back, I tried to build a couple 3D models of the two aeroplanes for the simulators. I tried to find as many detail shots as I could and finding good photographs of the original C.205 is very difficult. The paint job on my C.202 is based on the one hanging in the Smithsonian with some artistic liberties: Macchi Screenshots
- Ivan.
All this says was Adriano was got into more intense combat sorties in a short period of time within the range of his fighter.
The war was moving farther away from bases in England and flying into Axis territory.
The Spitfire and Thunderbolt were so short legged that it could not fly far enough to engage in any combat.
Do not know how many times reading about how they ran out of fuel or had to end combat because they would not make it back.
Great combat planes if they could get to the fight.
Which included the short legged Airacobra in Pacific US.
When the 56th Thunderbolt group used European bases their combat record improved.
When air bases were built closer to Rubal the P40s had enough range to engage.
Just looking at the war records of the planes.
All of them did well within the range of their airplanes to get to the fight.
fubar57
General
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G
gomwolf
Guest
Here is some data of G.55 and G.56.
G.55 - 1
G.55 - 2
G.56
IMO, this plane has great potential but DB605A engine has not been enough to pull it out.
G.56 with DB603A show us great performance even it's engine doesn't used ADI or Take off power.
G.55 - 1
G.55 - 2
G.56
IMO, this plane has great potential but DB605A engine has not been enough to pull it out.
G.56 with DB603A show us great performance even it's engine doesn't used ADI or Take off power.
Argentinians liked much and considered the G.55 a "winner" and superior to Spitfire IX in tests they made in 1950. "su capacidade de trepada y de virage era superior al Supermarine Spitfire Mk.9 como se pudo comprobar en una serie de evaluciones realizadas durente 1950" They also said that the pilots had a sensation of flying in a compact and solid structure that answered well to inputs. The engine had to be taken of each 100hrs of flight for inspection, the inverted V configuration made some components difficult to replace. It had a problem with replacements - Italy was far and still recovering from war - and landing gear was fragile.
Do you have any information on roll rate?
G
gomwolf
Guest
Only thing I know about it's roll rate is rechlin test on 27 feb 1943 and it seems already mentioned. Germans evaluate roll rate of this plane is little lower than Bf109G-4.
AFAIK, Meier Motors restoring a G.55 since 2012 and I am waiting with huge expectation.
Hmm... I cannot find the page of it now.
Here is old link - Fiat G.55 - MeierMotors GmbH
