Maneuverability vs Speed (1 Viewer)

Wild_Bill_Kelso · Jun 7, 2023

GregP said:
I don't think so, Wild Bill. Nowhere NEAR that many. That's more than many loss rates and was not seen in those numbers.

The P-51 in the ETO had a loss rate of 1.18% for the entire war. That's 84.9 sorties per loss.

You're saying 1 in 12 or 16 aborted for "engine problems?" Let's look at 1 in 12. That's an abort rate of 8.33%, or 7 times the loss rate! I don't know of a CO or an upper command who'd put up with an abort rate 7 times the loss rate.They'd get to the bottom of that in a hurry or someone's head would roll.

Somehow every discussion of air war in WW2 seems to slide back toward 8th AF flying out of England. This part of the war has never been a major interest of mine so I can't comment on maintenance and reliability rates flying out of a soft green field outside of Cambridge in 1944. I imagine they would be fairly good with aircraft maintained in hangars, temperate weather, good supply chains etc.

I'm talking about units flying out of Pacific Islands, Darwin, China, Burma, Syria, Egypt, Tunisia etc. in 1941-1943, during the pivotal years of the war. Plenty of heads of course did roll as some of these units were routinely taking near 100% casualties. Others maintained a fairly low serviceability rate.

I'll post some examples since apparently nobody knows what I'm talking about here.

drgondog · Jun 7, 2023

Greg Boeser said:
A pattern of early returns would eventually result in a discreet transfer to a maintanence unit, or co-pilot on a C-47.

I agree, that crosses line.I know of two 355th pilots that were removed from flight duty altogether. One for too many aborts and the other for not following his leader into combat.

I also know of a specific situation where that occurred to my godfather Claiborne Kinnard as he went from 355th to 4th as CO in Training for Blakeslee. His wingman chose to make a business decision when Clay bounced a gaggle of 8-10 Bf 109s - not only did hit wingman not follow but also the other 4 ship flight in the section. The other two in the flight aborted/escort before contact. He got one 109 immediately and found himself in the company of foul tempered Germans with no cover - and extended.

When he got 'home', he pulled all into a closed door 'discussion' and following, instructed Ops to Never assign the six pilots to fly anytime he led that squadron. He was known to be contemptuous of the RAF slang infestation of the old boys in the 4th and did not make a lot of friends there. Later, in more cordial circumstances in the company of my father, Kinnard and brown water lubrication, he remarked that many in the 4th that he flew with were among the most un-discilined he encountered in the war but he had deep respect for Blakeslee, and remarked that the discipline issue was just because enough of theculprits simply disliked his style of leadership compared to Blakeslee.

One thing was reasonably certain, as a former starting tackle at Vanderbilt two years before my father was starting tailback at Vandy, Kinnard was an imposing figure. Shown below was dad and Clay at return to 355th in mid February - Kinnard's hearing was nearly gone so for the first six missions he led he had my father as his wingman. LtC flying wing to LtC.

drgondog · Jun 7, 2023

Wild_Bill_Kelso said:
Somehow every discussion of air war in WW2 seems to slide back toward 8th AF flying out of England. This part of the war has never been a major interest of mine so I can't comment on maintenance and reliability rates flying out of a soft green field outside of Cambridge in 1944. I imagine they would be fairly good with aircraft maintained in hangars, temperate weather, good supply chains etc.

I'm talking about units flying out of Pacific Islands, Darwin, China, Burma, Syria, Egypt, Tunisia etc. in 1941-1943, during the pivotal years of the war. Plenty of heads of course did roll as some of these units were routinely taking near 100% casualties. Others maintained a fairly low serviceability rate.

I'll post some examples since apparently nobody knows what I'm talking about here.

Well, at least One of the outfits near Cambridge had only the Service Hanger. Further if your notion of temperate weather extends to Jolly Old' that also is flawed. Much of English countryside was covered with PSP, although Steeple Morden was a former RAF bomber base and had good runways.
My father (from Texas) described English weather and seasons as 'winter and 4th of July'. The weather conditions and changes due to Atlantic/polar and North sea fronts duking it out during 8th AF operations are legendary.

When he was Dpty Gp CO, he instituted mandatory Link time for all the 355th pilots to scale up poor stateside training for the replacements. The 355th had a very low crash fatality total due to bad weather conditions.

Wild_Bill_Kelso · Jun 7, 2023

If you asked pilots in New Guinea or the Aleutians whether they would rather operate out of England, what do you think their answer would be?

GregP · Jun 7, 2023

OK, let's say you're in the Pacific. The definitive document for the Naval war is Naval Aviation Combat Statistics World War Two. It doesn't mention aborted flights at all. It deals with action sortie, losses of various types, aerial victories, and tons of bombs dropped. But, the reliability of the R-2800 engine was phenomenal.

For the entire war, the F6F Hellcat experienced a 1.75% loss rate per sortie, or they flew 57.2 sorties per loss. It's the same number expressed in different units.

Again, you say it wasn't unusual to see 1 in 12 aircraft return for engine issues. 1 in 12 is 8.33% and that rate of issues is 4.75 times the loss rate.

The same reasoning applies as above. They simply didn't have long-term have engine issues at a rate higher than the loss rate and let that go. Once in a while, sure. Regularly, no way.

GrauGeist · Jun 7, 2023

A friend of ours, who piloted B-24s out of England, had remarked that he could count on one hand, the number of times that they assembled without some form of overcast.

pbehn · Jun 7, 2023

GrauGeist said:
A friend of ours, who piloted B-24s out of England, had remarked that he could count on one hand, the number of times that they assembled without some form of overcast.

What is it with Americans? Taking their bad weather everywhere they go. The weather was fine in 1940.

drgondog · Jun 7, 2023

Wild_Bill_Kelso said:
If you asked pilots in New Guinea or the Aleutians whether they would rather operate out of England, what do you think their answer would be?

Ask them where they have the best chance to laid? Of course. Or the least chance of being cannibal or croc dinner.

That said flying out of the Aleutians was certainly worse. OTOH maybe your chances of surviving combat ops was higher in Aleutians?

SaparotRob · Jun 7, 2023

drgondog said:
Ask them where they have the best chance to laid? Of course. Or the least chance of being cannibal or croc dinner.

That said flying out of the Aelutians was certainly worse. OTOH maybe your chances of surviving combat ops was higher in Aleutians?

I'd be as worried about trying to find the airfield. Or even the end of the runway while trying to take off!

Wild_Bill_Kelso · Jun 7, 2023

Well I remember one P-39 pilot flying out of Port Morseby said, after describing the muddy, hole ridden conditions on the airfields they used, that 'every takeoff and landing was a thrilling adventure'. Between bouts of malaria, dysentery, and jungle rot. Then they had the pleasures of navigating around the crocodile infested swamps, jagged mountain peaks and shark infested bays amidst sudden massive thunderstorms which could pop up in less than an hour and were beyond the abilities of local forecasters to predict.

pbehn · Jun 7, 2023

Wild_Bill_Kelso said:
Well I remember one P-39 pilot flying out of Port Morseby said, after describing the muddy, hole ridden conditions on the airfields they used, that 'every takeoff and landing was a thrilling adventure'. Between bouts of malaria, dysentery, and jungle rot. Then they had the pleasures of navigating around the crocodile infested swamps, jagged mountain peaks and shark infested bays amidst sudden massive thunderstorms which could pop up in less than an hour and were beyond the abilities of local forecasters to predict.

I know the P-39 had it's faults but surely it wasnt responsible for malaria and dysentery?

SaparotRob · Jun 7, 2023

I thought it was brought in to cure malaria and dysentery.

pbehn · Jun 7, 2023

SaparotRob said:
I thought it was brought in to cure malaria and dysentery.

I believe I read that too somewhere on the net, it's probably true.

drgondog · Jun 7, 2023

Wild_Bill_Kelso said:
Well I remember one P-39 pilot flying out of Port Morseby said, after describing the muddy, hole ridden conditions on the airfields they used, that 'every takeoff and landing was a thrilling adventure'. Between bouts of malaria, dysentery, and jungle rot. Then they had the pleasures of navigating around the crocodile infested swamps, jagged mountain peaks and shark infested bays amidst sudden massive thunderstorms which could pop up in less than an hour and were beyond the abilities of local forecasters to predict.

It was more comfortable dying in the ETO.I'd be as worried about trying to find the airfield. Or even the end of the runway while trying to take off!
Those conditions existed frequently in ETO fall, winter and spring. When my father lead the 355th home from Foggia Italy to Steeple Morden, every pat of Bay of Biscay through Ireland was covered by undercast. Rather than beak escort at planned location he led the Group to tag along with the 3rd Division B-17s - got on the Command Channel to talk with lead ship of the Wing and asked that they give heading and distance to the Buncher near Cambrige when they crossed the English coast - then broke away and dead reckoned to Cambridge where the cloud cover opened up a tad, enough to see Cambridge and thence to Royston/Steeple Morden - where they landed with 200 foot minimums.

When my father offered advice about flying instruments, I frequently listened.

drgondog · Jun 7, 2023

pbehn said:
What is it with Americans? Taking their bad weather everywhere they go. The weather was fine in 1940.

We bitch more about weather changes in Texas - as well as T-Storms known as Texas Killer's

Wild_Bill_Kelso · Jun 7, 2023

drgondog said:
It was more comfortable dying in the ETO.I'd be as worried about trying to find the airfield. Or even the end of the runway while trying to take off!
Those conditions existed frequently in ETO fall, winter and spring. When my father lead the 355th home from Foggia Italy to Steeple Morden, every pat of Bay of Biscay through Ireland was covered by undercast. Rather than beak escort at planned location he led the Group to tag along with the 3rd Division B-17s - got on the Command Channel to talk with lead ship of the Wing and asked that they give heading and distance to the Buncher near Cambrige when they crossed the English coast - then broke away and dead reckoned to Cambridge where the cloud cover opened up a tad, enough to see Cambridge and thence to Royston/Steeple Morden - where they landed with 200 foot minimums.

When my father offered advice about flying instruments, I frequently listened.

No disrespect to your dad, who I'm sure was a far greater man than I, I just think conditions in some of the more remote Theaters of operations were a bit more harsh than England, were harder to get supplied, and this was reflected in maintenance issues per the original branching out of this particular subject.

Apologies to the board of course for mentioning "the aircraft that shall not be named"

Greg Boeser · Jun 7, 2023

SaparotRob said:
I'd be as worried about trying to find the airfield. Or even the end of the runway while trying to take off!

Read a memoir of a B-25 pilot in the Aleutians, who was taxiing in fog so thick he couldn't see his wingtips. He got to the end of the runway, waiting for the mission to be scrubbed. As he sat there the tower cleared him for takeoff. He was so overcome with fear, he couldn't lift his arm to reach the throttles. After several minutes the tower finally cancelled the mission.
He was no coward, flying many missions against Attu and Kiska, and even a few against the Kurile Islands.

SaparotRob · Jun 7, 2023

Greg Boeser said:
Read a memoir of a B-25 pilot in the Aleutians, who was taxiing in fog so thick he couldn't see his wingtips. He got to the end of the runway, waiting for the mission to be scrubbed. As he sat there the tower cleared him for takeoff. He was so overcome with fear, he couldn't lift his arm to reach the throttles. After several minutes the tower finally cancelled the mission.
He was no coward, flying many missions against Attu and Kiska, and even a few against the Kurile Islands.

Hurtling blindly into thick fog while throttling up to "ludicrous speed" is utter insanity. That ain't cowardice.

Wild_Bill_Kelso · Jun 7, 2023

There is a difference between courage, which I think most of these guys had in ample supply, and pure suicide

pbehn · Jun 7, 2023

drgondog said:
We bitch more about weather changes in Texas - as well as T-Storms known as Texas Killer's

On the ground the weather here is just an inconvenience and constant source of chit chat. In the sky its a different matter, the cloud base here today in mid June is below the level of the nearby moorland. Those moors are covered in WW2 crash sites caused by navigation errors and iced wings.

Maneuverability vs Speed (1 Viewer)

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