Match-up between Tigercat and Mosquito, who wins?

[wuzak]

I posed this very question to Steve Hinton who has flown both. He said there is no doubt on which is better and its "the one with Tiger in the name" No comparison.

Not as a bomber. In 1943.

 

[tomo pauk]

Not as a bomber. In 1943.

Nor anytime diring the ww2.

 

[warbird51]

Well, the Mosquito was designed as a bomber, the Tigercat as a fighter. Comparing a Mosquito to a Tigercat is like comparing a Dodge Minivan to a Dodge Challenger Both great vehicles, but designed for different uses. Apples to oranges.

 

[nuuumannn]

Not many F.IIs remained as F.IIs, most were completed as NF.IIs with AI radar.

There were only two 'F.IIs' built - I don't know whether the designation was ever used. The spec that produced the fighter Mosquito was F.21/40; the first fighter Mosquito was the third prototype W4052, which was painted black to begin with and became the first NF.II. This first flew in May 1941. The two 'F.IIs' were named the DH.98B Turret Fighter, referred to in a DH drawing I have pictures of, were built as fighters equipped with a Bristol gun turret, again with a night fighter role in mind to F.18/40. These were the fourth prototype, W4053 which first flew in September 1941 and W4073, which flew in December 1941. Neither was actually fitted with a workable turret, W4053 flying for the first time from Salisbury Hall to Hatfield with a mock-up turret fitted. After the turret Mossie idea was canned, the two turret fighters were converted into prototypes for the T.III trainer variant.

 

[Glider]

One MosQuito (I think) was converted to a single seat configeration. I don't have the numbers with me but the weight saving was considerable as was the improvement in performance.
is this just a false memory of mine or does anyone else know about this

 

[Greyman]

One MosQuito (I think) was converted to a single seat configeration. I don't have the numbers with me but the weight saving was considerable as was the improvement in performance.
is this just a false memory of mine or does anyone else know about this

A Mk.VI was converted and saved 1,500 pounds, take-off weight being 18,800. Maneuverability was improved and climb was much improved - but still wasn't suitable for taking on single-seaters.

 

[wuzak]

There were only two 'F.IIs' built - I don't know whether the designation was ever used. The spec that produced the fighter Mosquito was F.21/40; the first fighter Mosquito was the third prototype W4052, which was painted black to begin with and became the first NF.II. This first flew in May 1941. The two 'F.IIs' were named the DH.98B Turret Fighter, referred to in a DH drawing I have pictures of, were built as fighters equipped with a Bristol gun turret, again with a night fighter role in mind to F.18/40. These were the fourth prototype, W4053 which first flew in September 1941 and W4073, which flew in December 1941. Neither was actually fitted with a workable turret, W4053 flying for the first time from Salisbury Hall to Hatfield with a mock-up turret fitted. After the turret Mossie idea was canned, the two turret fighters were converted into prototypes for the T.III trainer variant.

W4050 was fitted with a mock turret

Note the holes in the side of the mock turret where dummy guns could be installed to see what effects the turret had on airflow and performance when the guns were pointed in different directions.

W4053 did have a working turret

From Ian Thirsk, de Havilland Mosquito , An Illustrated History, Volume 2:

W4053, the Turret Fighter prototype...was constructed at Salisbury Hall bewteen May and September 1941., and equipped with a four-machine-gun Bristol turret located behind the cockpit. This was in accordance with Air Ministry instructions to complete two of the initial batch of fighters with gun turrets, the armament of the latter replacing the nose-machine guns. W4053 made its maiden flight (in the hands of Geoffrey de Havilland Junior) from Salisbury Hall on Sunday 14 September 1941, losing part of its turret on the way to Hatfield.

Ted Lovatt (the chargehand responsible for the installation of hydraulic and pneumatic systems in the Salisbury Hall-built prototypes) once flew in W4053 with Geoffrey de Havilland Junior while John de Havilland rode in the turret. Ted Recalls: "John went in the turret but we didn't have intercom so if we wanted to talk to John I had to turn round and try to make out what he was talking about. So off we went, got up to a reasonable speed, then John tried out the turret. All the way round the back of him everything worked beautifully, but when he tried to the turret forwards over the top of the cockpit - which was the rest position for the guns and, incidentally, the only position in which you could get in and out, the thing just stalled on him because of the force of the slipstream. We had two more flights like that, then it was banned - nobody was allowed to fly in it. On one occasion, as the machine was taxying out I saw a head pop up inside the turret. We managed to get Geoffrey and stop it and it was a bloke trying to get a flight without anyone knowing he was there...."

This, I believe, is W4053

The pictures were posted by you in the Mock Up thread.

Aircraft Mock-Ups

 

[nuuumannn]

Yep. Interesting quote. I thought the turret fitted to W4053 on its first flight was a mock up. Didn't realise it was an original Bristol B.11 turret. It didn't go into mass production and never saw service on any aeroplanes.

Here's a pic of the canopy of W4050 I took in July; the faint line shows where the turret fairing sat. The mounting bolt lugs still exist within the structure.

0507 de Havilland Aviation Heritage Mosquito Prototype turret fairing

0507 de Havilland Aviation Heritage Mosquito prototype

 

[parsifal]

Man that is excellent knowledge guys, but they aren't giving out free sweets I'm afraid.

 

[wuzak]

It looks like W4050 has been configured as it was with 2 stage Merlin engines around the end of 1942/early 1943. In this guise, with 70-series Merlins, the highest Mosquito speed was achieved.

 

[Glider]

A Mk.VI was converted and saved 1,500 pounds, take-off weight being 18,800. Maneuverability was improved and climb was much improved - but still wasn't suitable for taking on single-seaters.

Thanks for that

 

[nuuumannn]

but they aren't giving out free sweets I'm afraid.

Dang it.

It looks like W4050 has been configured as it was with 2 stage Merlin engines around the end of 1942/early 1943. In this guise, with 70-series Merlins, the highest Mosquito speed was achieved.

Yup. Hence the ochre undercoat look to the nacelles.

 

[Milosh]

Wouldn't a better comparison be Tigercat vs Hornet?

 

[rochie]

Wouldn't a better comparison be Tigercat vs Hornet?

But then there is a chance the Tigercat might come out second best and we couldn't have that could we?

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I might be wrong, but approx. 24% (22,500 out of 95,000 total) of US's aircraft losses were in the Pacific Theater. So, I'd love for you to tell a veteran pilot of the PTO that it wasn't the "real stuff".

smh...

As for the rest of your post, I'm sure everyone else will have a go at it.

 

[CORSNING]

It could have been found wanting when the bullets started flying. Im not even close to knowing much about the Tigercat.

Brother, you said a mouth full there!

But i find it a little strange so many think a better comparison is the Mossie v Lightning.(P-38) In my opinion the lightning didnt come close to the mosquito except in the vast seas of the PTO.
WHAT? The P-38G-on could out maneuver the Mosquito (any), outturn it, out climb, out roll, out dive, out accelerate and was generally faster at all altitudes
than the contemporary Mosquito.

And lets face it, spitballs would destroy a Japanese aircraft and send it flaming into the water.

OK, it is your turn to see if you can lock your guns on the most maneuverable
(at low and low medium speeds) fighters produced during WW2.

The ETO was where the real stuff went down.

OK then, 1/2 of your fuel is spent and you are 300 miles out at sea. Two Zeros incoming. Good luck.

 

[CORSNING]

OK, I know what you thought you were trying to say, then
there is Nagasaki and Hiroshima. That's is about as real
as it gets sir.

 

[parsifal]

You have got to be sh*tting me. PTO not important? compared to what????? A Luftwaffe that in the last year of the war suffered losses at the rate of 7 times those of its opponents. That from 1940 suffered consistent equipment and resource shortages as to be reduced to irrelevance?

From mid 1943 onward, the Japanese airforces were reduced to impotence as well, but it would take until the middle 1944 before the Japanese exchange rate in the air overtook those of the Germans .

Both sirforces were out of their depth, Both suffered very expensive and catastrophic losses. Maintaining that impotence was a full time job for the allied air forces in both TOs.

It was no walk in the park for either theatre.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

It was no walk in the park for either theatre.

It's rather insulting to the brave men who fought the war to say otherwise.

 

[KiwiBiggles]

The Hornet was just a lighter faster Mosquito wasnt it?

No, it was a completely new aircraft. Completely different fuselage, wings, engines, undercarriage. I'll grant you that the fin was of the familiar de Havilland shape; but by that token the Mosquito was really a twin-engined Tiger Moth.

You have a tendency to assume that different aircraft from the same company must really be the same aircraft, with a bit of badge engineering. The Hornet is not a Mosquito; the Beaufighter is not a Beaufort; the Tempest is not a Typhoon.