I suspect the historical reality is they could have made them, but because of the way the war was going (the direct survival impetus so to speak) militated toward the fastest best performing interceptor / frontal aviation fighter possible, and because the British could get longer range aircraft from the Americans, they just didn't prioritize a longer range fighter enough in time to get anything into action during the war, really. Plus the British had the Mosquito.
Me-110 Underrated
- Thread starter Zipper730
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I suspect the historical reality is they could have made them, but because of the way the war was going (the direct survival impetus so to speak) militated toward the fastest best performing interceptor / frontal aviation fighter possible, and because the British could get longer range aircraft from the Americans, they just didn't prioritize a longer range fighter enough in time to get anything into action during the war, really. Plus the British had the Mosquito.
By late 1942 it was starting to dawn on the Germans that they were in a death struggle with the Soviets that they might not win, and they were beginning a long phase of increasingly desperate crisis management so clarity of Strategic thinking may have been affected.
??
Bf 110B, with 610L of fuel per Jumo 210, was in service in early 1939. Not sure what 1942 has to do with anything.
Forgive me, what is your point? Are you saying it had very good range?
The end of 1942 was Stalingrad. The Germans were in a bit of trouble from that point onward. Probably hard to completely relax and make good long term plans....
Shortround6
Major General
From Wiki
"The first 136 Fairey-built Battles were the first to be powered by the Merlin I engine.[2] By the end of 1937, 85 Battles had been completed and a number of RAF squadrons had been re-equipped with the type, or were otherwise in the process of re-equipping"
The Merlin I had the ramp style head. 890hp for take-off.
Which power egg?
The one with the Hercules III or the one with the Hercules VI engine?
1250hp at 16,750ft is just not enough from a radial engine with a really crappy cowl.
Carb intake at 12 o'clock, crap for exhaust thrust, high drag plus the oil cooler hanging out at 6 0'clock.
The Miles M 20 used a Merlin XX poweregg and had a bit more power than a Merlin III several thousand feet higher and had the benefit of around 100hp of exhaust thrust at high speed in the upper teens.
Please see the P-36 tests and P-40 tests for the difference in power needed for a radial engine of the time and a V-12 engine of the time when installed on the same airframe.
Unless you can also introduce cowling/radial cooling knowledge from several years after 1940-41 the Hercules is a non-starter. Also please note a Hercules is several hundred pounds heavier than a Single stage Merlin + radiator + coolant.
Another strike against the quick and dirty stick a power egg on it idea, Beaufighter used a 12ft 9 in propeller.
Hercules powered fighter might want a different reduction gear?
An escort fighter has to be able defend the bombers, not just fly along side them. That is where the 110 gets part of it's bad reputation. The 100 could certainly fly alongside the bombers, it could not defend them while doing so.
Shortround6
Major General
Did it have the range to get to most of it's targets or could it be modified to do so fairly easily?
Yes the big belly tank was a mistake. could later versions carry under fuselage ordnance plus drop tanks?
German range requirements were less than that of the allies. Germans could base in captured countries, Allies had to fly over the captured countries in order to hit Germany proper.
Just about any twin engine fighter was sub par in air to air combat vs single engine fighters.
However single engine fighters are not the only aircraft that need engaging.
Could 110s perform maritime patrol or strike missions better than 109s or 190s?
Could 110s do bomber intercepts in the early years better than 109s?
The 110 was another German aircraft that did not have a smooth development curve. by that I mean it's development was somewhat in fits and starts as it supposed to be taken out of production at least once if not several times and then reinstated when the desired replacement turned out to be a turkey. This did NOT help later models stay up to date or as competitive as they might have been.
Kevin J
Banned
You Americans just don't understand English sarcasm.
Only if you convinced yourself that their only target was England
What about a late model P-38?
I know these are rhetorical but I'll answer anyway....
For the mid-war, this is one of the real issues. Not so much single-engined fighters per se, but the first string vs. the second string. In Russia, second line fighters were manning most of the PVO units. that were protecting the operational targets in the rear areas, at least until some time in 1943 when they started getting some Spit IXs. Those clapped out Hurricanes, I-16s and LaGG-3s could take out bombers but a heavy fighter might be a problem. In the and the Bay of Biscay, the Atlantic, and in the MTO, you had Strategically vital convoys guarded by aircraft carriers which were in turn protected by Gladiators, Skuas, Sea Hurricanes, Fulmars and so on. Many of these were almost wiped out, a few were turned around. Even a Bf 110 could protect bombers from those if it could reach the target area. And that might have made a big difference... SS Ohio barely made it into port and sank in the slip.
One more bomb definitely would have done her in...
In Egypt, Algeria, Libya, Tunisia, Allied forces were bringing in supplies and staging for major offensives largely unscathed. The Germans could have done a lot more damage if they had a good escort fighter.
Yea but, not as well as Beaufighters. And that was actually a problem. Nor could they escort Ju 88s to their maximum range.
Unescorted bombers, sure. Anything else? Not so much.
Well every aircraft has stories like that. Look how long it took to upgrade the Spit after the V.
Shortround6
Major General
You are the one who wants to turn this into a 110 vs Beaufighter argument.
You can't turn a 110 into Beaufighter, it isn't big enough, it isn't heavy enough and the Germans didn't have an engine even the Hercules III catagory until 1941 and as relayed by koopernic in another thread, the BMW 801 was nowhere near reliable enough for long range missions in 1941. So that puts you into 1942.
applying 1941-42 standards to a plane that first flew in in May of 1936 seems a bit unfair ( See P-40s built in 1941-42 compared to FW 190s and Typhoons)
Not being able to escort Ju 88s to their max range is not that big a deal. Ju-88s operating at max range have about zero bomb load.
So pick a worthwhile bomb load and try to find out how far a JU-88 could actually carry it. If it is more than 10 50 kg bombs the bombs go on the outside which really screws up the speed/range.
and if the 110 doesn't have enough gun armament then the Ju-88C-2 was a real failure and the C-4 only a marginal improvement.
It have had a very good range.
Discussing 1942 is all good and well, Germany needs to kick UK out of the war by 1940/41 in order to stand chances.
I think we all agree with that.
How long did it take?
Reluctant Poster
Tech Sergeant
- 1,624
- Dec 6, 2006
Over a year. Spitfire V in combat March 1941. Spitfire IX June 1942.
No, I don't think that's a valid assertion. I brought up the Beaufighter initially because I was told it was impossible to build a long range fighter in 1940. The Beau and the Zero are probably the two best counter examples to disprove that specious claim. But here I'm referring to the Beaufighter specifically because particularly in the maritime war from the Bay of Biscay to the Aegean, the Beaufigher was operating as probably the main competitor to the Bf 110 and frankly by the end of 1942 it was dominating those spaces.
I don't think it's necessary to turn a 110 into a Beau to improve it's range. Much smaller aircraft than the Beaufighter (see Mosquito) or the 110 (see P-38) managed much better range than the 110 and had better flight characteristics and performance to boot. It's a fairly low bar.
And yet, P-40s were still flying front line combat missions, and tangling with Fw 190s as late as Anzio in 1944. Meanwhile, the 1930's vintage Bf 109 was competitive until the end of the war. So was the Spitfire. The Beaufighter and Zero were still dangerous in 1942 or 43 or 44 even though they were 1940 designs.
Ah, but you are being a little bit literal minded here my friend, was that an accident? Ju 88s were flying bombing missions, air strikes, against ground targets and ships, until Allied fighters showed up to dissuade them. Sometimes they had to do it anyway and took heavy losses. A worthy escort fighter would have helped.
To sink a ship like the Ohio a 1,000 bomb load was sufficient.
When did I ever say, imply, or suggest that the 110 had insufficient gun armament?
But since you bring it up, the Beau had 10 guns to the 110s 6.
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I don't agree and I don't think you've shown that it did.
Germany almost won the Battle of the Mediterranean. If they had an effective long range fighter they might have done so. Long range fighter would have also helped in the Russian war by allowing better interdiction of Operational and Strategic targets. Even against England, they could have had a greater impact against the convoys at least.
In that case I don't understand your first comment.
More likely, until some time in spring 1942 when PVO began to receive Yak-7/7a (Yak-7b since end summer).
Kevin J
Banned
Only a Mig-3, Spitfire IX, Thunderbolt or Kingcobra. Hurricane IIc, P-40M/N went to PVO too.
Kevin J
Banned
Yes, the Yak-9U appeared late in the war.
