Me 209 (1943) - what's the verdict?

[Clayton Magnet]

Was the 309 developed AFTER the 209 was scrapped?

 

[tomo pauk]

Was the 309 developed AFTER the 209 was scrapped?

309 1st flew before the 209 did.

 

[rinkol]

Thank you for the feedback.
The book is from 1960s-70s I presume? What engine, the book says, was in the nose for the 410 or 458 mph speed figure?



Ta 152 is in 1945. Me 209 was cancelled in late 1943.

If the numbers are actual performance data, I would infer that they were for the DB 603G The Jumo 213E wasn't available in production form until at least the end of 1944 and certainly was unlikely to have demonstrated its performance potential in the 209. The DB 603G was never available in production quantities.

 

[Denniss]

Both engine types were obviously used in prototype form by the time the 209 was testflown.
Would be interesting to know if the 213es high alt stage was actually working by then as it proved to be a major problem during initial production

 

[tomo pauk]

If the numbers are actual performance data, I would infer that they were for the DB 603G The Jumo 213E wasn't available in production form until at least the end of 1944 and certainly was unlikely to have demonstrated its performance potential in the 209. The DB 603G was never available in production quantities.

My understanding, at least after a few posts that have had attached book chapters, is that 1st speed quoted was with DB 603G, and 2nd speed quoted for the Jumo 213E after the Me 209 was cancelled, ie. well in 1944, when MTT were still trying to sell th 209 to the LW.

Both engine types were obviously used in prototype form by the time the 209 was testflown.
Would be interesting to know if the 213es high alt stage was actually working by then as it proved to be a major problem during initial production

Both compressor stages were always working on the Jumo 213E. What was not working (was banned?) was usage of MW 50 injection when compressor was using 3rd (ie. high altitude) gear, or 3rd speed; the GM1 was also not used on early Ta-152H.

 

[wjkuleck]

Methinks Messerschmitt may have had more projects than engineers...

 

[dedalos]

The non availability of the 1.42 ata boost for most of 1943 for the db605 made the 109G badly outperformed on all fronts.
All ambitious new projects demonstrated heavy armor and armament without having acces to properly powerful engines.
Clever solutions were possible on the existing equipment. I believe that it was very possible to push the bf109f4 to 700km/h by redisigning the radiators , fully cover the landing gear , delete the nose mgs and use in wing mgff 20mm guns, and various others small aerodynamic improvements. With little production loss such a fighter would be very competitive for 1943. Or a K4 airframe with drum type nose radiator
Or a Fw190A4 airframe with 1.65 ata engine. Or light fw190c based on the v13 prototype.
In my opinion neither the me209-ii nor the ta152 should be built given the lack of powerful engines. No heavy armament is useful if you cant get firing position
The german eventually used mixed formation s of heavy gruppen and light gruppen , but the perfomace advantage of the light gruppen was small, if any.
Germany faced engine power problem in wwi as well. But by proper management was able to have very competitive fighters to the last day of the hostilities.in ww2 they failed .

 

[tomo pauk]

The non availability of the 1.42 ata boost for most of 1943 for the db605 made the 109G badly outperformed on all fronts.

Soviets were of a different opinion. The 109G performed just fine in the MTO, too.

Clever solutions were possible on the existing equipment. I believe that it was very possible to push the bf109f4 to 700km/h by redisigning the radiators , fully cover the landing gear , delete the nose mgs and use in wing mgff 20mm guns, and various others small aerodynamic improvements. With little production loss such a fighter would be very competitive for 1943. Or a K4 airframe with drum type nose radiator

700 km/h was probably out of reach for the 109F4, but indeed the tweaks like the wheel well covers would've further added to an already well-streamlined aircraft. Agreed on the weapon change - adds a lot of firepower for minuscule drag increase, unlike the gondola cannons.
Me - I'd steal the supercharger from the DB 603A, attach it to the DB 601E and add the MW50 system. That might get us to 700 km/h.

Or a Fw190A4 airframe with 1.65 ata engine. Or light fw190c based on the v13 prototype.

DB will 1st need to sort out the DB 603A? In 1943, it was even more troublesome than DB 605A.
BMW should've introduced the 801E by early 1943, even if that means the 801C is still in production past early 1942. Or blindly copy the supercharger from the G&R 14R engine.