Me 209 (1943) - what's the verdict?

[Clayton Magnet]

Was the 309 developed AFTER the 209 was scrapped?

 

[tomo pauk]

Was the 309 developed AFTER the 209 was scrapped?

309 1st flew before the 209 did.

 

[rinkol]

Thank you for the feedback.
The book is from 1960s-70s I presume? What engine, the book says, was in the nose for the 410 or 458 mph speed figure?



Ta 152 is in 1945. Me 209 was cancelled in late 1943.

If the numbers are actual performance data, I would infer that they were for the DB 603G The Jumo 213E wasn't available in production form until at least the end of 1944 and certainly was unlikely to have demonstrated its performance potential in the 209. The DB 603G was never available in production quantities.

 

[Denniss]

Both engine types were obviously used in prototype form by the time the 209 was testflown.
Would be interesting to know if the 213es high alt stage was actually working by then as it proved to be a major problem during initial production

 

[tomo pauk]

If the numbers are actual performance data, I would infer that they were for the DB 603G The Jumo 213E wasn't available in production form until at least the end of 1944 and certainly was unlikely to have demonstrated its performance potential in the 209. The DB 603G was never available in production quantities.

My understanding, at least after a few posts that have had attached book chapters, is that 1st speed quoted was with DB 603G, and 2nd speed quoted for the Jumo 213E after the Me 209 was cancelled, ie. well in 1944, when MTT were still trying to sell th 209 to the LW.

Both engine types were obviously used in prototype form by the time the 209 was testflown.
Would be interesting to know if the 213es high alt stage was actually working by then as it proved to be a major problem during initial production

Both compressor stages were always working on the Jumo 213E. What was not working (was banned?) was usage of MW 50 injection when compressor was using 3rd (ie. high altitude) gear, or 3rd speed; the GM1 was also not used on early Ta-152H.

 

[wjkuleck]

Methinks Messerschmitt may have had more projects than engineers...

 

[dedalos]

The non availability of the 1.42 ata boost for most of 1943 for the db605 made the 109G badly outperformed on all fronts.
All ambitious new projects demonstrated heavy armor and armament without having acces to properly powerful engines.
Clever solutions were possible on the existing equipment. I believe that it was very possible to push the bf109f4 to 700km/h by redisigning the radiators , fully cover the landing gear , delete the nose mgs and use in wing mgff 20mm guns, and various others small aerodynamic improvements. With little production loss such a fighter would be very competitive for 1943. Or a K4 airframe with drum type nose radiator
Or a Fw190A4 airframe with 1.65 ata engine. Or light fw190c based on the v13 prototype.
In my opinion neither the me209-ii nor the ta152 should be built given the lack of powerful engines. No heavy armament is useful if you cant get firing position
The german eventually used mixed formation s of heavy gruppen and light gruppen , but the perfomace advantage of the light gruppen was small, if any.
Germany faced engine power problem in wwi as well. But by proper management was able to have very competitive fighters to the last day of the hostilities.in ww2 they failed .

 

[tomo pauk]

The non availability of the 1.42 ata boost for most of 1943 for the db605 made the 109G badly outperformed on all fronts.

Soviets were of a different opinion. The 109G performed just fine in the MTO, too.

Clever solutions were possible on the existing equipment. I believe that it was very possible to push the bf109f4 to 700km/h by redisigning the radiators , fully cover the landing gear , delete the nose mgs and use in wing mgff 20mm guns, and various others small aerodynamic improvements. With little production loss such a fighter would be very competitive for 1943. Or a K4 airframe with drum type nose radiator

700 km/h was probably out of reach for the 109F4, but indeed the tweaks like the wheel well covers would've further added to an already well-streamlined aircraft. Agreed on the weapon change - adds a lot of firepower for minuscule drag increase, unlike the gondola cannons.
Me - I'd steal the supercharger from the DB 603A, attach it to the DB 601E and add the MW50 system. That might get us to 700 km/h.

Or a Fw190A4 airframe with 1.65 ata engine. Or light fw190c based on the v13 prototype.

DB will 1st need to sort out the DB 603A? In 1943, it was even more troublesome than DB 605A.
BMW should've introduced the 801E by early 1943, even if that means the 801C is still in production past early 1942. Or blindly copy the supercharger from the G&R 14R engine.

 

[spicmart]

Is it known which wing profile the Me 209 II was using?

If it used the one of the Me 109 it was inferior to the Fw 190D in terms of speed and in a dive as it was draggier. Climb performance might have been a tad better as it was lighter. Turn rate should be similar or inferior in a high speed turn. Roll rate goes to the Dora I'd say as Messerschmitt was not known to make overly sturdy, one-spar wings with smaller ailerons (Me 109).
Control harmony and good handling were something Tank seemed to put emphasis on.
Erhard Milch once even proposed Focke Wulf to team-up with Messerschmitt to produce a fighter based on the Me 209, called the MeTa fighter (sic!).
It is not recorded if Mark Zuckerberg had a role in that.

 

[Zmauky]

Well, after reading a couple of books on the subject of history of Me 109 (some from our members), this hobby aviation lover has to ask why the development of the Me 155 was not hurried and adopted for production. I am referring to the earlier program, which is actually the Me 109 with new wings ( latter as a naval and high-altitude -db 628- fighter projects ), and not the later Hohenjager project related to the BV.
It is clear that after too long development during 1942-43, only changing the wings could no longer match the performance of Focke Wulf fighters (if I am not mistaken, prototypes with jumo 213 / db 603 appeared already in 1942).
But if the wing change followed as the development of the Me 109F (during 1940-41) ....
In fact, I thin that I remember that some early Me 109F prototypes had different wings than the series production (smaller in length and wider at the root), which would indicate that Willy wanted a change.
Anyway, it seems to me that the Me 209-II (xy% of identical parts with the Me 109, i.e. cockpit and fuselage) is a bit too small for the DB 603 / Jumo 213.
I would rather say that the Me 209-II is actually a rescue of production and profits after the disaster with the Me 210.
How much better the Me 155 would be than standard Me 109G and how much production would be lacking (because of the new wings) is anyone's guess. But in any case, a more realistic and faster way to get a better Me 109 than the Me 209-II.
When I'm already pulling the Me 155 (?-l), according to the available drawings, those wings are not the same as on the Me 209-II. Do we happen to know (and also for the Me 209-II) which airfoil profiles they were? Or if there are original drawings ?

 

[Holtzauge]

I have a note saying the Me 209 had the NACA 2R1 with 16% thickness at the root and NACA 23010-64 at the tip (10% thick). I think this info comes from David Lednicer but I'm not sure.

If this is true then Messerschmitt was not up to date with compressibility effects since while the NACA 2R1 is quite good (So is the NACA 230-series) in this aspect (not by design but by a happy coincidence), this is a far too thick profile at the root to deliver good performance at the high speeds late WW2 designs flew at, especially in dives.

Another serious and easily fixed thing on the Me 209 would have been to slope the armored windscreen more which on the Bf 109 was far too steep as well and probably cost 10 km/h or more in top speed. Sure, the windscreen was too steep on the Spitfire as well but they were aware of it and fixed that on later marks and the Spiteful.

While the Erla canopy certainly was a step in the right direction, I still can't understand why Willy was so wedded to the Bf 109 canopy that he retained that poor design on the Me 209. After the Fw-190 made its debut in 1941, it's amazing that anyone would even think about suggesting a plane with such an atrocious rear view.

 

[Snautzer01]

still can't understand why Willy was so wedded to the Bf 109 canopy that he retained that poor design on the Me 209.

Thats not difficult. Messerschmitt was quite aware that the next fighter that would be chosen, could not disturb the factory lines. The more the same the less the problem
And in that is the reason imo it did not go into production. Not enough better. Retooling a factory is a very big thing. In war time its better to adapt then totally new. Spitfire 109 mustang etc
The 262 is a prime example. Far better but not enough production to explore the tech gap.
When it was more or less ready one could argue that only test batches went to war. Not the 1000 needed.
So "bad" design must i think always seen in the light of war production, the time it will take to retool re-train workforce and the gain it will make.
War is a business. The one that understands that will make hundreds of lesser things then 10 of uber ones.

 

[Holtzauge]

Thats not difficult. Messerschmitt was quite aware that the next fighter that would be chosen, could not disturb the factory lines. The more the same the less the problem
And in that is the reason imo it did not go into production. Not enough better. Retooling a factory is a very big thing. In war time its better to adapt then totally new. Spitfire 109 mustang etc
The 262 is a prime example. Far better but not enough production to explore the tech gap.
When it was more or less ready one could argue that only test batches went to war. Not the 1000 needed.
So "bad" design must i think always seen in the light of war production, the time it will take to retool re-train workforce and the gain it will make.
War is a business. The one that understands that will make hundreds of lesser things then 10 of uber ones.

Agree on the point that if possible, retain as much of the old to ease production. And as you mentioned, the evolution of the Spitfire is an example of this.

But also note that they on the later Spitfires and on the Spiteful had a bubble canopy. And all late WW2 aircraft had that or a streamline canopy with a good rear view (and for good reason!): The Tempest, P-47, P-51, Fw-190, Me-262, La-7, Yak-3 etc. etc.

So again, sure, retain usable parts of the Bf-109 if possible. But my point was that the Bf 109's canopy type was not usable anymore and that everyone (except Willy it seems!) had caught on to this. He was simply out of step here.

And the Germans were right to shelf the Me-209: It brought nothing new to the table compared to Kurt Tank's long-nosed 190's and 152's. So telling Willy no on the Me-209 and instead re-directing him to do the Me-262 seems perfectly logical.

 

[Engineman]

You will find that the genuine background to all this is in the new book ,
Messerschmitt Me 309 Development & Politics", By Dan Sharp & Calum E Douglas.

Eng

 

[Holtzauge]

You will find that the genuine background to all this is in the new book ,
Messerschmitt Me 309 Development & Politics", By Dan Sharp & Calum E Douglas.

Eng

Might get that book. Currently reading Calum's book on engines. Great stuff! Too bad he decided to quit this forum though.