Me 209 (1943) - what's the verdict?
- Thread starter tomo pauk
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Howard Gibson
Senior Airman
I have William Green's Warplanes of the Second World War, Fighters Volume One, here. I assume you are discussing the Me209II, rather than the world speed aircraft. They could not get DB603 engines, so they switched to Junkers Jumo 213s. Eventually, this engine got a two stage supercharger, but not in 1943. The top speed was rated at 410mph at 20,000ft, which is not much better than a Bf109. The reference also says "458mph at full boost altitude". The engine had GM1 injection.
Late in the war, Messerschmitt was told to focus on Me262s. The next piston engined fighter was going to be the Ta152. Was this thing going to be better than a Ta152?
- Thread starter
- #3
Thank you for the feedback.
The book is from 1960s-70s I presume? What engine, the book says, was in the nose for the 410 or 458 mph speed figure?
Ta 152 is in 1945. Me 209 was cancelled in late 1943.
Howard Gibson
Senior Airman
The term Ta152 seems to date from 1943, and the research goes back to 1942. The Germans cannot build everything.
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- #5
I'd politely disagree with that.
Howard Gibson
Senior Airman
As long as you do it politely. 
I have Arming the Luftwaffe, by Daniel Uziel, here. According to Uziel, the Germans were aggressively rationalising production late in the war. They needed Me262s. They were pissed off at Messerschmitt for the Me210. They were happy with the Fw190 airframe. If Messerschmitt focuses on jet fighters and Focke Wulf focuses on their new piston engined fighters, they jet planes and piston engined fighters in 1946. What could possibly go wrong?
I have Arming the Luftwaffe, by Daniel Uziel, here. According to Uziel, the Germans were aggressively rationalising production late in the war. They needed Me262s. They were pissed off at Messerschmitt for the Me210. They were happy with the Fw190 airframe. If Messerschmitt focuses on jet fighters and Focke Wulf focuses on their new piston engined fighters, they jet planes and piston engined fighters in 1946. What could possibly go wrong?
Smith and Kay in German Aircraft of the Second World War from Putnam, the first edition in 1972 not much more modern than Green, unfortunately, unless you buy the reissued version produced by Conway Maritime Press in the 90s... This doesn't add much to the wiki page, but it mentions that performance with the DB 603 was excellent, but the third prototype was powered by the Jumo 213E. The performance figures are the same as wiki's but a powerplant is not stipulated from whence they came. Might it be prudent to assume that the figures quoted are for the DB engined example since this is the type of powerplant stipulated on the wiki page?
Messerschmitt Me 209 (1943) - Wikipedia
By the way, it doesn't appear to be a mess... Am I missing something?
As for the discontinuation of the programme, Smith and Kay place it at the feet of the Fw 190D being ready for production sooner and with less reorganisation of priority owing to Messerschmitt concentrating on the Me 262, so it was abandoned in autumn 1944 at around the same time as the first Fw 190D-9s entered service.
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- #9
One statement:
"The program met a swift end when the Me 209 V5 prototype first flew in late 1943. It was 50 km/h (31 mph) slower than the Fw 190D and offered no improvement in handling characteristics."
(~685 km/h the 190D did minus 50 = ~635 km/h)
Another statement:
Maximum speed: 678 km/h (421 mph, 366 kn)
~635 km/h is not equal to 678 km/h the 209 supposedly was good for, but well in the ballpark with the 190D.
Then we have all of logic of talking about the Fe 190D in late 1943. No specific date, or at least month on when the 209 was cancelled. List of sources is sorely lacking.
Hi
'The German Fighter, since 1915' by Rudiger Kosin, Putnam 1988 (from German original published 1983) has the following on pages 170-171:
I hope that is of interest.
Mike
Hi
Heinz J Nowarra's 'The Messerschmitt 109, A Famous German Fighter', Harleyford Revised edition Summer 1966, has this:
And William Green's 'War Planes of the Second World War, Fighters Volume One', MacDonald 1960 (as previously mentioned), has this information:
Mike
Hi
On the Me 209 V5, William Green has the following in 'The Warplanes of the Third Reich', Galahad Books 1990 (reprint of 1970 original):
Mike
Daggerr
Airman 1st Class
For those of you who understand German, part of an article by Herbert Ringlstetter in Flugzeug Classic of April 2017:
Deleted member 68059
Staff Sergeant
- 1,058
- Dec 28, 2015
As you have bought my book, I can direct you to page 384, on which is recorded:
"At Focke-Wulf, the Ta 152 had replaced the Ta 153 as
the designated Jumo 213-engined successor to the Fw
190 in August 1943."
Have you actually started reading it yet ?
If I do a keyword search of the RLM stenographic record, the first mention of "Ta 152" is>
RLM Meeting, Berlin 17th August 1943.
Deleted member 68059
Staff Sergeant
- 1,058
- Dec 28, 2015
My book page 341...March 1943.
It was cancelled because it was not very good once the requirements the RLM laid down were met.
Me262 production may well have been an influence, but the real issue was that the RLM had
to decide between the 209 and the Ta153. The time needed to make the 153 was eventually seen
as prohibative, so Tank turned up and told Milch that he could do "something" similar in a tiny fraction
of the time by simply inserting a tail extension piece into the 190 fuselage. So, the result was that the 153
was never made but the 152 was. Thats ultimately why the 209 was not produced. Tank promised Milch
a simplified plane well before the (slightly inferior DB engine`d) 209 could be mass produced, in my view
the 209 plane was potentially not bad. But as you can read from Messerschmitts wartime comments,
the he had a lot of problems put in his way.
... later in 1943 (August 10th, Berlin)
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- #17
Three more general question:
1) I wonder, did a successor to the Me-109 suffer from German leadership's cancelling of projects that wouldn't yield results within a short time, because "the war will be won by then"?
2) The Me 109 flew throughout the war, albeit in updated versions. Still, it was an old design towards the end, did this inhibit it in the last years of the war or did the design remain competitive?
3) How did the Me-109 perform compared to the Fw-190D at high altitudes? I am asking because Galland apparently suggested cancelling the Me-109 in favor of the Fw-190 and Me-262.
1) I wonder, did a successor to the Me-109 suffer from German leadership's cancelling of projects that wouldn't yield results within a short time, because "the war will be won by then"?
2) The Me 109 flew throughout the war, albeit in updated versions. Still, it was an old design towards the end, did this inhibit it in the last years of the war or did the design remain competitive?
3) How did the Me-109 perform compared to the Fw-190D at high altitudes? I am asking because Galland apparently suggested cancelling the Me-109 in favor of the Fw-190 and Me-262.
- Thread starter
- #19
My take on this:
1) Bf 109 have had a successor in the Fw 190 (from LW's point of view), and in the Me 262. The successor the MTT was hoping for - the Me 309 - was a flop.
2) It depends on the role? For relatively short-range missions on the Eaaster Front, it remained competitive until VE day. As a long-range fighter - that was never it's strong side. For high-altitude job in the ETO - engine was not up to the task, the DB 605AS, 605D and 605L being late by about a year. With a proper engine, it was good; 420-440 mph high up on the versions available for the last ~10 months of the war.
3) The DB 605AS- and 605D-powered Bf 109s were every bit as good as the 109Ds, if not better wrt. raw speed and climb.
It's a wiki page, what do you expect?
I undertsand your frustration, Tomo, but the inaccuracies are not entirely unexpected, given the dearth of source material.
