Me 209 - any worth in it?

[Shortround6]

I believe in the above drawing the items labeled 2 are fuel tanks, the items labeled 1 are part of the cooling system. Not sure on item 2. Areas on rear fuselage, fin and horizontal stabilizers are part of the oil cooling system.
Some of the late series aircraft got a fuel tank added behind the cockpit.
The issue with the wing fuel tanks and self sealing is the shape. Large area but flat tanks require a greater weight of self sealing material for their capacity that squaty fat tanks. And the loss of capacity is proportionally greater when the hight is fixed ( wing thickness).
The He 100 was a very nice example of streamlining and tight packaging but it's utility as a practical warplane may be subject to qestion, especially in 1940 when it was faced with doubtful armament in addition to the added operational/protective equipment needed.
Had either the MG 131 or MG 151 been a lot further along in development the armament problem would not have been so bad.

 

[Shortround6]

Duplicate

 

[SpicyJuan11]

You misunderstood.

There was a variant of the He-100 with an enlarged radiator in a deepened fuselage intended for license production in Japan.

I meant that this might be where he is getting the idea that the "D-1" had no surface cooling. In reality the later production block aircraft possessed tweaked versions of the cooling system from the v series.

blueskies, that looks like a D-0 aircraft that was sent to Japan.

 

[GrauGeist]

Dang...I know the forum's server has problems with popping up double posts...but there's a half hour between SR's...I think that might be a new forum record!

 

[GrauGeist]

What are you implying GrauGeist? That the D had a larger radiator?

If you examine the D-0/D-1 closely, you'll find that there is an opening below the spinner, in the "chin" area. In several factory photos, traces of oil can be seen coming from this area, especially after tests. Also, in comparing factory photos of earlier types to the D-1 types, there is a noticable increase in the radiator's size...particularly width-wise.

The frustrating thing about following the He100 project, is that virtually no factory documentation or work notes survive, so it requires a great deal of detective work to solve some of these mysteries.

 

[blueskies]

If you examine the D-0/D-1 closely, you'll find that there is an opening below the spinner, in the "chin" area. In several factory photos, traces of oil can be seen coming from this area, especially after tests. Also, in comparing factory photos of earlier types to the D-1 types, there is a noticable increase in the radiator's size...particularly width-wise.

The frustrating thing about following the He100 project, is that virtually no factory documentation or work notes survive, so it requires a great deal of detective work to solve some of these mysteries.

That opening just below the spinner is to allow cool air into the engine compartment. It has nothing to do with the oil cooling system.

The 109e series had similar vents.

 

[tomo pauk]

Macchi MC.200 Saetta root NACA 23018 mod tip NACA 23009 mod
Macchi MC.201 NACA 23018 mod NACA 23009 mod
Macchi MC.202 Folgore NACA 23018 mod NACA 23009 mod
Macchi MC.205 Veltro NACA 23018 mod NACA 23009 mod

Fiat G.50 Freccia NACA ??15 NACA ??10
Fiat G.55 NACA 2415 NACA 2409
Fiat G.59 NACA 2415 NACA 2409

Of course you won't count on the fact that we Italians can use a profile without eavily modify it, I hope.... but the most important feature to improve the stability that first monoplanes were lacking was adding the wash-out, that came out from some German papers arised in the second half of the thirties.

Thanks. Basically, the fighters used classic wing profiles, the NACA 24 serise should predate the 230 series?

To keep a long story short, Nazis wanted to stop the production of Fiat G55 and to transport the skilled manpower from Turin to Germany. Of course something had to be invented to avoid this so Fiat management and C.te Adriano Mantelli, one of the most skilled Pilots of ANR, did invent a thing that no german fighter of those times could do, carry a quite normal aeriel torpedo under the belly. A prototype was hurriedly produced and C.te Mantelly exibit himself in a complete aerobatics programme with the torpedo underneath, to convince the German Commission that G55 had a future....

Fw 190 was also tested with a torpedo, the extended strut of the tailwheel being a less eye-pleasing thing than on the G.55S. (picture)

Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if you or the author got something wrong as I have found nothing to support that the Japanese bought D-1's (the version without surface cooling prevalent in all previous versions).
Also, take a look at this:
...
The D-1's radiator looks clearly bigger to me.

The radiator on the He 100 on the 1st picture looks the same as the radiator on the fighter numbered '21' depicted on the picture at the bottom left.

 

[GrauGeist]

That opening just below the spinner is to allow cool air into the engine compartment. It has nothing to do with the oil cooling system.

The 109e series had similar vents.

So did the earlier block of He100 airframes. But according to several authors, there is debate about this larger inlet on the D series and the fact that there isn't evidence of oil tracing on the earlier series.

And, this isn't a Messerschmitt...

Here is one factory photo that has been used in the possible oil cooler debate...there are a few others, but not of this quality.

 

[tomo pauk]

The Bf 109E also have had the shallow inlet just under the spinner, plus of course the inlet for the oil cooler itself - picture.

 

[kool kitty89]

The Fw 190 was built because of the radial engine. It would have shared the same fate as the He100 if it took engines away from the Messerschmitt.
Even a poor performing He 100 dragged down with armour and cannon would still have been one of the fastest machines of its day and superior to the P-40 and 109E. The question...is whether in a 1944 timeframe would a 109 be better than a 100? A silly question to ask in 1940 but I suppose that is what its about.

That's also part of my point: with proper strategic planning/logistics management, etc, Messerschmitt would NOT have gotten priority for engines like they historically did, and the Bf 109 should have been replaced by something better following the E/T models ... or at least they should have been trying very hard to stop production in favor of something more potent as both a defensive and offensive weapon. (if DB-601N/E/605 powered He 100 and Fw 190 derivatives proved genuinely worse than the existing 109F/G series -not just in speed/climb, but firepower, range, visibility, dive performance, and handling -on the ground and air- then they'd have been still stuck with the 109, but I see that as rather unlikely -there's the Fw 187 to consider as well, especially as a defensive weapon)

That said, with RLM policy as it was, using the Jumo 211 for testing on more fighters might have helped too. (particularly engineering a plane flexible enough to adapt to a variety of power plans and potentially directly switch between fairly similar engines on the production line -like say, designing the He 100 a bit less tightly and allowing it to accept either a Jumo 211 or DB 600, though the Fw 190 would probably be easier to adapt to such, perhaps somewhat like the differences between the Merlin and Allison powered P-40s) Though in heinkel's case, designing a fighter that expressly shared at least partial parts commonality with the nacelles and radiators designed for the DB-600/601 and 211 powered He 111 models would have been efficient/attractive in terms of mass production and maintenance.


And on the note of the Fw 187, here's some relevant photos of the retractable radiators used on the single-seat prototypes:
http://www.warbirdphotographs.com/LCBW6/FW187-V2-16f.jpg
http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/fww2/fw187/fw187-5.jpg
http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/fww2/fw187/fw187-6.jpg
http://aviarmor.net/aww2/_photo_aircraft/f_ger/fw187/fw187v1_1.jpg
http://aviarmor.net/aww2/_photo_aircraft/f_ger/fw187/fw187v1_2.jpg
(all rather like smaller versions of what the He 111 used)

And also the radiator from the DB-601 powered V5 prototype with radiator in fully retracted position on the ground:
http://s412.photobucket.com/user/ruspren/media/ruspren001/IMG_0695_zps8b3c015f.jpg.html

Those DB-601s apparently used a similar steam/evaporative pressurized cooling system as well, so not the standard DB-601A/N models used on contemporary 109Es. (also not like the surface cooling used on the earlier DB-600 powered Fw 187 prototype example)

Much of this was discussed at length here:
http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/fw-187-german-51-a-38757-20.html
(albeit with a fair amount of cross-talk and missed points along the way, the more recent post I made there attempted to summarize some of that information and address some of the confusion)

The cooling system in the all built versions of the He-100 used evaporative, ie condensing steam in the wings, for cooling. The tiny retractable radiator was added between the wing header tank circuit, and offered negligible cooling when retracted.

We know that the last production block (D-1) used this system as photos of the engine bay exist that show several features related to the steam cooling system.

This is all true except for the surface cooling aspect. All versions used pressurized steam cooling systems, but only some of them used surface cooling (both for condensing and -more so, I believe- simply cooling the hot, pressurized liquid coolant) as well as surface cooling for oil in the rear fuselage. (non-evaporative in this case)

Such a system can just as well apply for using a fixed, centralized radiator for cooling/condensing the water and oil before sending them back to their respective header tanks, and this is what the D-1 supposedly did (as well as the prototype modified to test this arrangement). It should also be fairly similar to the pressurized cooling systems used on the DB-601E and Jumo 211E (and later models) including use of a steam separator on all models. (I'll need to check again, but from what I recall, all those systems took advantage of limited boiling inside the cooling jacket, nucleating mostly around hot spots in the engine, and the water was then sent though a centrifugal steam separator, sending the liquid portion straight to the radiator -and/or surface cooling ducts- while allowing the limited amount of water vapor to condense before joining the rest of the liquid)

I believe in the above drawing the items labeled 2 are fuel tanks, the items labeled 1 are part of the cooling system. Not sure on item 2. Areas on rear fuselage, fin and horizontal stabilizers are part of the oil cooling system.
Some of the late series aircraft got a fuel tank added behind the cockpit.

Indeed, and the portion labeled 3 may be the oil header tank or just an expanded portion of the oil cooling system with the rear fuselage being insufficient? (I recall that being mentioned as well)

The issue with the wing fuel tanks and self sealing is the shape. Large area but flat tanks require a greater weight of self sealing material for their capacity that squaty fat tanks. And the loss of capacity is proportionally greater when the hight is fixed ( wing thickness).

Indeed, though allowing the areas relegated to surface cooling be filled with fuel tanks (as with the P-38's intercoolers) this difference could at least be partially offset, in spite of the difficulties of flat fuel tanks.

One thing I missed on previous discussions on the P-39's wing tanks was that the XP-39 had lacked any provision for guns in the wings and could thus rely on the outer wing panels for fuel where the production models carried the 4 M1919s and 1000 round capacity ammunition boxes. (the higher weight to volume ratio for the P-39's tanks compared to the P-40's would still be relevant, of course -flat tanks are heavier than tub tanks of the same volume) In fact, if the He 100 was anywhere near (or better than) the drag characteristics of the P-39, it would have been a winner, over the 109 at least. (powered by engines on the level of the 109F and G ... hell, even the contemporary Jumo 211 models would be better than what the engines the P-39 was getting throughout the war, same for the sluggish WEP ratings -at least compared to British practice)

 

[kool kitty89]

I am not worried about the cannon's weight, I would be worried about it actually working in 1939 and 1940. If it doesn't (and the 109s engine cannon didn't work in those years) you are down to the two machineguns or if we are feeling charitable, four MG 17s in the wing roots.
I would also be worried about the effect of self-sealing tanks. I have the book in question and it doesn't say one way or the other. However most if not all of the He 100s were completed in 1939 with the last ones finished in very early 1940.

I don't think it would be a very good plane to target 1940 or in place of the 109E (or T if they'd made more of them) but as a compliment to the 190 and alternative to the 109F entering production at all.

The engine used in the He 100 might have allowed satisfactory use of the MG-FF or MG-FF/M where the 109 struggled with any nose gun. (the He 112 apparently managed better than the Jumo 210 powered 109 prototypes attempting MG-17 or MG-FF motor cannon)

1 MG-FF and 2 MG 17s would still be a bit weak compared to the 109E's armament, somewhat less so if the 100 round drum was used. But given the overall timing, I don't think the He 100 would have been ready for volume production early enough to supplant the 109E. (equipping 109Es with belly racks sooner would be more feasible and significant, as would adopting the 109T-2 for Jabo use with the longer span wing)

That opening just below the spinner is to allow cool air into the engine compartment. It has nothing to do with the oil cooling system.

The 109e series had similar vents.

The Bf 109E also have had the shallow inlet just under the spinner, plus of course the inlet for the oil cooler itself - picture.

Indeed, and any streaks on the cowling below the engine very well could have been oil as well, from the engine itself, and by no means evidence that the oil cooling system was near the nose.

 

[GrauGeist]

Sure...Heinkel looked to Messerschmitt for his own designs so naturally they'd be identical, right?

The point that was being made but that speculation, was that the aircraft had been designed around the ill-fated evaporitive system. In an attempt to bring the Series II airframes up to a conventional standard, Heinkel's engineers were making the best use out of existing spaces.

I've had to do similar efforts when putting a different engine/trans setups into a vehicle it wasn't designed for, so I could accept that possability.

There is no conctrete proof that there was just as much as there's no concrete proof that there wasn't.

 

[wuzak]

Sure...Heinkel looked to Messerschmitt for his own designs so naturally they'd be identical, right?

If you are talking of teh duct under the spinner, it may just be a requirement for the engine.

 

[Shortround6]

One thing I missed on previous discussions on the P-39's wing tanks was that the XP-39 had lacked any provision for guns in the wings and could thus rely on the outer wing panels for fuel where the production models carried the 4 M1919s and 1000 round capacity ammunition boxes. (the higher weight to volume ratio for the P-39's tanks compared to the P-40's would still be relevant, of course -flat tanks are heavier than tub tanks of the same volume) In fact, if the He 100 was anywhere near (or better than) the drag characteristics of the P-39, it would have been a winner, over the 109 at least. (powered by engines on the level of the 109F and G ... hell, even the contemporary Jumo 211 models would be better than what the engines the P-39 was getting throughout the war, same for the sluggish WEP ratings -at least compared to British practice)

The XP-39 carried 200 gallons of fuel and the YP-39s and P-39C carried 170 gals. P-39D-M carried 120 gal. Now perhaps the early ones did run the fuel tanks out beyond the later ones and into what would become the wing machine gun area. On the other hand the early P-38s carried 400-410 gals in 4 tanks in in the wing roots. This decreased to 300 gallons with self sealing tanks fitted into the same spaces in the P-38s thick wing roots. A YP-38s unprotected tanks (and piping) weighed 121.4lbs. A P-38J with with 6 fuel tanks (a 55 gal tank in the each wing leading edge being added) and carrying 410 gallons had a fuel system that weighed 505.8lbs.
P-40s went from a 171lb 3 tank system holding 180 gals(?) to a 233lb 3 tank system holding 160 gallons on the P-40B to a 425lb 3 tank system holding 148 gallons. The P-40Ls (and first Ns) had a two tank system holding 120 gallons that weighed 322lbs. A P-39 with 120 gals had a fuel system that went about 290lbs.

 

[blueskies]

I'll just make some points here rather then quoting. It doesn't work properly on this phone browser.

Some He-100s were fitted with 601a series engines.

The D-1 and D-0 subtypes are misnomers. The proper name, per heinkel documents is A-0. This was a small run of mostly handbuilt machines in three production batches. Sometimes an earlier batch machine would be modified to later batch standards. This happened to 3 sold to the Soviet Union.

All the He-100s produced were equipped with the surface cooling in the wings as well as the oil cooling in the fuselage. This is most definitely true of the A-0 run (with on caveat) and is known from photos of the engine bay of A-0s as well as photos of A-0s showing heavy weathering on the paint in the exact places where the surface cooling is located.

Caveat from above: Heinkel documents indicate that 6 of the A-0 machines were planned to be set aside for wing radiator experiments. There are some heinkel drawings of this, and a photo of a He-100 with 177 style leading edge radiators.

Landing gear troubles plagued the He-100 throughout its life. It was a complicated mechanism that was redesigned at least once. Finally the gear was altered so that the legs were interchangeable between sides.

The vent on the underside of the spinner is not heinkel copying messerschmitt but arriving at a similar solution to the same problem. That vent went through a number of variations and modifications. Similar vents can be spotted on virtually every 601 engined plane I can think of.

If I remember right tsagi tested out a whole bunch of aircraft in its windtunnel and found the p-39 to be the lowest in c/d.

 

[SpicyJuan11]

I'll just make some points here rather then quoting. It doesn't work properly on this phone browser.

Some He-100s were fitted with 601a series engines.

The D-1 and D-0 subtypes are misnomers. The proper name, per heinkel documents is A-0. This was a small run of mostly handbuilt machines in three production batches. Sometimes an earlier batch machine would be modified to later batch standards. This happened to 3 sold to the Soviet Union.

All the He-100s produced were equipped with the surface cooling in the wings as well as the oil cooling in the fuselage. This is most definitely true of the A-0 run (with on caveat) and is known from photos of the engine bay of A-0s as well as photos of A-0s showing heavy weathering on the paint in the exact places where the surface cooling is located.

Caveat from above: Heinkel documents indicate that 6 of the A-0 machines were planned to be set aside for wing radiator experiments. There are some heinkel drawings of this, and a photo of a He-100 with 177 style leading edge radiators.

Landing gear troubles plagued the He-100 throughout its life. It was a complicated mechanism that was redesigned at least once. Finally the gear was altered so that the legs were interchangeable between sides.

The vent on the underside of the spinner is not heinkel copying messerschmitt but arriving at a similar solution to the same problem. That vent went through a number of variations and modifications. Similar vents can be spotted on virtually every 601 engined plane I can think of.

If I remember right tsagi tested out a whole bunch of aircraft in its windtunnel and found the p-39 to be the lowest in c/d.

My book "Heinkel He 100 Record Breaker: Military Aircraft in Detail" has not come in yet, but the Schiffer book has where it states the D-1 abandoned surface cooling.

As for the wing radiator, would you mind posting s picture of what that would look like if you have one? Also, how well would thus work?

 

[blueskies]

http://i57.tinypic.com/21lv2xe.jpg
http://i62.tinypic.com/14k9qhe.jpg
http://i59.tinypic.com/10nt89e.jpg
http://i57.tinypic.com/mtbbc1.jpg

The above photos are of A-0 series aircraft, often mistakenly called D-0 or D-1.

As for the wing radiator.
http://i62.tinypic.com/i2ixsg.jpg

This may have been nothing more then a trial installation.

 

[SpicyJuan11]

As for the wing radiator.
http://i62.tinypic.com/i2ixsg.jpg

This may have been nothing more then a trial installation.

Interesting, what Versuchs aircraft was this?

 

[Jaivan]

As for the wing radiator.
http://i62.tinypic.com/i2ixsg.jpg

This may have been nothing more then a trial installation.

Propeller looks like VDM 12087A, so it might mean DB 605A or 601E experimental installation.

 

[SpicyJuan11]

That opening just below the spinner is to allow cool air into the engine compartment. It has nothing to do with the oil cooling system.

The 109e series had similar vents.

Not true. Hood remarks on page 63 that:

The oil seeping out of the intake in the bottom of the nose ring hints at the possible location of a conventional, auxiliary oil cooler. No photographs in which this small Blockkühler is clearly visible have been found.

As for the wing radiator, nearly all Block II (commonly known as variant D) aircraft show the wing radiator on the port side of the aircraft. Hood even shows this on the plane's drawings on page 91, 92, and 93.