Me-262

Udet,
as Lune said the Hitler's order to make the 262 a bomber did not hold back the a/c. Messerschmitt was all ready looking at attaching bomb racks to the a/c before Hitler's order.

When Goering told Willey that Hitler wanted bombs on the 262, Willey replied that 'we have always provided for 2 bomb racks' When asked how long to add, Willey replied '2 weeks'. The only thing to be done was add fairings to the racks. This was on Nov. 2 1943.

Udet,

Hitler first inspected the Me262 on the 26th of November 1943. That was the date of his infamous request to have a bomber version produced. However, his request was largely ingored, Messershmitt choosing to go ahead with the focus on fighter version production. On May 23, 1944, at Berchtesgaden when Hitler inquired as to how many bomber versions of the 262 had been produced, the answer was "None". There is no evidence that the Jabo verision significantly delayed the introduction of the Me262 or caused a signifcant reduction in the number of available planes.

As for the choice to divert resources earlier delaying the introduction of the 262, I've not seen any evidence of this either. The plane just took a long time to develop, mostly because producing engines for it was at the fringe of German manufacturing capability. Making it a much higher priority would probably have hastened its availabity by at most a few months.

And besides, what's your problem with my figures? 400 Me262's in 1944 and another 600 in 1945 is more than triple actual deployment figures. I think this is extremely generous - there is no evidence that no matter what Germany did they were ever going to be able to produce that number of working jet engines.

What effect more jets would have had is anyones guess. I'm sure it would have lead to more bomber losses, but in the end I think the 262's would still have been shot down (mostly while taking off or landing) and quite likely attacks against airfields would have been even more intense. 262's could not take off from dirt fields like the prop fighters hidden in the woods.

=S=

Lunatic

KraziKanuK said:

Udet,
as Lune said the Hitler's order to make the 262 a bomber did not hold back the a/c. Messerschmitt was all ready looking at attaching bomb racks to the a/c before Hitler's order.

When Goering told Willey that Hitler wanted bombs on the 262, Willey replied that 'we have always provided for 2 bomb racks' When asked how long to add, Willey replied '2 weeks'. The only thing to be done was add fairings to the racks. This was on Nov. 2 1943.

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This is not true. The V10 Jabo version required significant reworking of the structure to support the two bombs.

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Lunatic

There was 1433 Me262s produced to April 19 1945 of which 497 were total losses for one reason or another. During Jan, Feb, Mar 1945, a total of 764 were produced.

1944 production was 568 and 1945 production was 865.

A total of 7916 Jumo 004B were built by Junkers Flugzeugwerke plus an unknown number of engines at Opel. There was also the 004D which began production shortly before the was ended.

.........

That was the conversation. Willey did like to stretch it a bit.

the only way the Me 262 could have had a slight overall effect is a big what if. In 1943 had it been on hand for the start of the US heavy bombing campaign and the night fighter version ready for the RAF night bombing operations. True the Allies probably wopuld have pushed their own jet program to the max to deal with the German threat and then who knows really what the German designs on the borad would have become. In the 40's all jet engines were dogs, the problem with altitidue, turbines and the lack of associated fuel tanks gave limited useage to an otherwise deadly fighter interceptor. In 45 the new 262 was to be ready esepcially in reagrds to night fighting when the outside external fuel tanks were done away with and enclosed fuel cells on either side of the cockpit were to be borne.................yuk

KraziKanuK said:

There was 1433 Me262s produced to April 19 1945 of which 497 were total losses for one reason or another. During Jan, Feb, Mar 1945, a total of 764 were produced.

1944 production was 568 and 1945 production was 865.

A total of 7916 Jumo 004B were built by Junkers Flugzeugwerke plus an unknown number of engines at Opel. There was also the 004D which began production shortly before the was ended.

.........

That was the conversation. Willey did like to stretch it a bit.

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There's pretty good evidence that something around 1550 Me262 airframes were completed to the point of recieving a werknumber (this does not mean they were finished). However, only about 300 ever saw combat operations. The reason? Engines. Indeed thousands of engines were built, but the majority of them failed on initial test. The majority of those which passed initial test failed before ever getting a plane off the ground.

The Average flight life of an engine that did make it into the air was only a couple of hours. To service those 300 planes, far more than 600 engines were required. Don't believe me? Look for yourself:

http://www.stormbirds.com/werknummer/

Hunt through the database and you will see the number of hours on each plane - and often that required several sets of engines!

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Lunatic

Erich said:

the only way the Me 262 could have had a slight overall effect is a big what if. In 1943 had it been on hand for the start of the US heavy bombing campaign and the night fighter version ready for the RAF night bombing operations. True the Allies probably wopuld have pushed their own jet program to the max to deal with the German threat and then who knows really what the German designs on the borad would have become. In the 40's all jet engines were dogs, the problem with altitidue, turbines and the lack of associated fuel tanks gave limited useage to an otherwise deadly fighter interceptor. In 45 the new 262 was to be ready esepcially in reagrds to night fighting when the outside external fuel tanks were done away with and enclosed fuel cells on either side of the cockpit were to be borne.................yuk

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I really think the evidence is very strong that any introduction date before about March 1944 is pure fantasy.

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Lunatic

For Lucifer´s sake RG!!

Didn´t you read my comments?

I DID say Hitler´s indeed ludicrous orders to make a bomber out of the Me 262 were real but NOT by any means the definitive cause for delaying the mass production of the jet!!

It was way before Hitler´s first inspection on the jet when an order to POSTPONE for undetermined period of time any and/or all those projects for weapons that would not reach service within a very short period of time.

This decision proved FATAL. A mistake of the German high command, period!

Had such order not been issued (and enforced) the Germans could have had a longer period time to make many necessary adjustments to the engines for the Me262.

You do think jets in significant numbers in service about early 1944 is fantasy?

I agree with you the systems for mass production of weapons were more efficient in the USA than in most countries of europe, Germany included of course. Still, I think you make a mistake since it would appear to me you totally underestimate the production capabilities of the Reich.

I could tell you the production figures of the Reich are very likely to prove you wrong.

Germany had shortages of some essential materials but they were never that significant to disrupt the armament industry of the Reich. The sole item that was lacking like hell, a very essential one, was precisely FUEL.

From my conversations with veterans I´ve learned that when Germany finally surrendered, the Luftwaffe had plenty of new fighters (Bf109s and Fw190s) ready to enter service. They simply lacked the time (and the fuel) to send them on for service.

I stick to my original post: had the Reich had a far more consistent planning and coordination policies with all designers they could have had a fleet of a few hundreds of operational jets ready to welcome the 8th air force when 1944 was starting.

In case you did not get it: the jets by themselves could not have won the war. Simple.

All that, and the direct and indirect effects of the deployment of jets in signficant numbers would have played in favor of Germany only.

I did read your comments Udet.

But I disagree. It would not have mattered much had the German's not "postponed" jet development, which as far as I can see there is little evidence to support having happened. Production was delayed perhaps a little, but not much - Messershmitt had a tendancy not to listen to such "orders". Research and development continued.

Quantity figures are a totally different issue than production capability. Germany didn't have the capability to produce reliable jet engines, pure and simple. It would not have mattered if they'd tried to produce them earlier in the war - they would have had even less success. Producing more malfunctioning engines earlier would not have helped them much.

Doesn't the fact that nearly 8,000 jet engines were produced but less than 400 combat jets ever saw service, mostly due to a shortage of working engines, make the issue clear? They simply could not mass produce the engines! About 10-20% of the engines produced were useable (to varying degrees), and these were pretty much assembled in the lab, not on the production floor.

It would have made a few months difference, thus my date of March 1944, rather than May-June 1944.

=S=

Lunatic

the lancaster kicks ass said:

not a chanse. it takes a truly great plane like the spitfire, hurricane or bf-109 to win a war, not a plane like the me-262, i mean, if it was such a great plane as many people are making out, it would have changed the corse of the war in the very short time it had to show itself

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I reckon the me 262 to be as historicaly important as the ones you mentioned. It was a great plane, it was simply a case of too little too late for the luftwafe when it became operational.

The jet age was at the beginning...no one knew what a jet would be capable of..

but it is only a great in the sence it was a first, it was not a great in the same sence as the spit or -109.........

I completely agree with that, Lanc. Deployment in numbers are very important, too. The big plus of the Me-262 was more kind of pioneering than anything else (even at the very day with the most day interception sorties flown by Me-262 in the war, on 7th of april 1945 they did managed to support 57 sorties, only).

I think potentially no, not by itself, but it could have bought the Germans time to put in the frontline more advanced designs such as the P-80, so I have said yes. It really was too advanced, and was a first generation jet plane to make more advanced prototypes available for service. The Me-163 Comet was the same, I said yes, for what it could become under potential future development.

The Komet was a great plane, let down only by its engine and fuel. Apparently it has the best flight characteristics of any Luftwaffe plane.

Me-262 was dead meat. The F-80 shooting star was faster and could fly higher. Lockheed had already retooled all their p-38 factories for the F-80, and 2 had already been sent to France, and 2 to Italy by the time the allies first encountered the Me-262. Mass production was starting and they would have been sent to the front lines.

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Howl said:

Me-262 was dead meat. The F-80 shooting star was faster and could fly higher. Lockheed had already retooled all their p-38 factories for the F-80, and 2 had already been sent to France, and 2 to Italy by the time the allies first encountered the Me-262. Mass production was starting and they would have been sent to the front lines.

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Actually 2 were not sent to France they were sent to England and 2 were sent to Italy and they never saw combat. They flew patrols over Italy behind enemy lines.

Are you absolutely sure that the P-80 would have outlfown a Me-262. Flying higher and the little bit of speed advantage is not everything in a dog fight.

Unless there was a fight between the Me-262 and the P-80, you cant really say that.