Me-309: let's give Willy another chance

[tomo pauk]

... or in other words, how would you desing a brand new fighter for LW? The historical 309 was conceived in mid 1940, 1st flown 2 years after that, so that could be kind of a time frame.

The yet another kind of Fw-190 and jet power are out of this thread, thankyou. So is a polished 109 - that one has it's own thread

 

[davebender]

Japan obtained rights to license build the DB601 engine during 1938. Why shouldn't Germany copy some Japanese ideas? The German Me-109 follow-on won't be an exact copy of the Ki-61 but it will give Messerschmitt some ideas.

Internal fuel capacity 50% greater then Me-109.
Wide track landing gear.
Canopy similiar to Fw-190.
Retain the historical Me-109G weapons arrangement.
DB605 engines. Leave a bit of space under the hood for future engine improvements such as larger supercharger.
Designed for 400+ mph level speed (i.e. similiar to He-100). Will probably have a high rate of roll similiar to He-100 and Fw-190.

Production cost of airframe plus engine must remain at least 25% cheaper then Fw-190. Otherwise the new German fighter design has no chance for approval.

 

[bobbysocks]

depends...are you looking for something to engage the allied fighters to keep them away from your bomber interceptors or you are looking to knock down bombers....or a little of both?

 

[michaelmaltby]

A better Me-109 (309) needs range, and that means fuel tanks, and that means wings .... and while yer at it Willie ... fix the undercart

MM

 

[davebender]

The Fw-190 had 524 liters of fuel in a fuselage tank. What's wrong with that?

 

[michaelmaltby]

".... The Fw-190 had 524 liters of fuel in a fuselage tank. What's wrong with that?"

Nothing .... as long as there are no CoG issues ...

MM

 

[Denniss]

Fw 190 had two fuselage tanks but it also consumed more fuel than a 109.

 

[davebender]

Replace that unreliable BMW801 radial engine with a fuel sipping DB605 engine and 524 liters of fuel will provide decent endurance.

 

[Rivet]

Operational testing of the Me-309 began at the Reichlin Erprobungstelle on November 20, 1942 test session piloted by RLM test pilot Beauvais. Beauvais included the following statements regarding the Me-309 in his report.:
"The Me-309 will be acceptable after some improvements but the present difficulties to the average fighter pilot. Control forces are extremely high by comparison with current fighters, and landing on the nosewheel will give problems to combat pilots at operational airfields. With full armament this aircraft will be barely thirty miles per hour faster than the Bf-109G, and there would seem to be no real advantage to introducing such a fighter when a superior aircraft (Fw 190D) will soon be available."
You include in your proposition criteria lack of Turbine consideration. That's the rub. Regards

 

[Juha]

Maybe something along VL Pyörremyrsky, maybe a bit bigger so it would have been able to use DB 603. Wide track undercarriage, larger cockpit with better view, easier take off and landing, bigger wing. But of course rather unWillylike

Juha

 

[michaelmaltby]

Like this ....

 

[vanir]

excuse me Juha, what is that plane? I like it.
is that a re-engined LaGG?

 

[Denniss]

excuse me Juha, what is that plane? I like it.
is that a re-engined LaGG?

VL Pyörremyrsky - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[davebender]

Dr. Tank has been wanting to produce the Fw-190C since 1937. If Germany has an adequate supply of DB603 engines why piddle around with anything else?

 

[GrauGeist]

A better Me-109 (309) needs range, and that means fuel tanks, and that means wings .... and while yer at it Willie ... fix the undercart
MM

The Me309 had tricycle landing gear and a bubble canopy adopted from the Me262...not a bad looking machine, actually

 

[MikeGazdik]

Never even knew of these, one nice looking plane for sure!!

 

[Juha]

VL Pyörremyrsky - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Denniss was quicker. BTW the armament info in Wiki misses the MG151/20 firing through spinner

Juha

 

[Ivan1GFP]

The Japanese DID design a Ki-61 with a DB605 equivalent engine.
It was called the Ki-61-II.
The Japanese seemed to have a few problems with superchargers so their altitude performance wasn't quite as good as the original German engines. Their quality of manufacture also wasn't anywhere near as good, so most of the production engines of EVERY type didn't come near the output of the prototypes.

The US estimated the performance of the Ki-61-II at just a bit over 400 mph level speed which probably was fairly good on the assumption that the engine was putting out the design HP. Production aircraft (not that there were many produced) probably didn't come anywhere near that. 380 mph is more typical of a production aircraft.

The armament package was easily superior to the 109G though: 2 sychronised 20 mm Ho-5 cannon in the cowl and 2 wing mounted 12.7 mm MG.

- Ivan.

 

[riacrato]

Maybe something along VL Pyörremyrsky, maybe a bit bigger so it would have been able to use DB 603. Wide track undercarriage, larger cockpit with better view, easier take off and landing, bigger wing. But of course rather unWillylike

Juha

Yes, I think it's a fascinating plane. Using a lot of wood makes sense for 1942 Germany as well. Equip this with a DB603, replace the MG17 with MG131, add 2 wingroot cannons and you should have a pretty solid fighter for 1942-1944.

 

[woljags]

i don't see why they couldn't have reversed engineered captured aircraft and added their best bits to there own designs,

109 with a merlin engine in 1940-41 ?