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Heinkel He 178 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaThe RLM had the "golden egg" dropped in their lap in 1939, when the He178 took to the skies, but they dismissed it's significance as a technilogical leap (and potential military value).
Had they embraced it's potential, and provided the needed funding, the HeS011 (the intended engine for the He280) would have been ready by the time the He280 was production ready (at a time when the Me262 was still being developed).
Even still, proper funding for engine development may have seen the "bugs" worked out of the HeS08 engines that were installed in the He280 and carried the He280 aloft for trials and successful demonstrations.
So that oversight by the RLM early on, created a "what fortunately didn't happen" instead of a "what if".
You couldn't be further from the truth, honestly.Heinkel He 178 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
It wasn't a combat aircraft, it was a proof of concept aircraft. The reason the RLM didn't run with it is there were better options at the time like the Me262 and the Jumo 004. The He178 was not a viable path to a combat model, while the He280 didn't have a viable engine; the Me262 and Jumo 004 were ready first.
You couldn't be further from the truth, honestly.
The He178 obviously was not a combat aircraft, (and I never said it was) even though in the following decades, jet design would adopt several innovations that the He178 possessed.
Now, the point being, that the He178 proved to the RLM that jet engines were a viable concept and not a "flash in the pan" like several other parallel technologies (like Caproni's ducted fan project), etc. and had the RLM fully backed the jet engine development in earnest in 1938/39, then the Hirth, Jumo and BMW engine development would have been far ahead of the game by the early 1940's. It wasn't until the war was well underway when the RLM suddenly realized their mistake.
So in a nutshell, the RLM looked at early jet technology much like the old school Admiralty looked upon steam engines fitted in ships, back in the day. It was different and they didn't like it.
And I am not sure where you got your information, but the Me262 was still on paper when the He178 was taking to the air. The He280 was much further along than the Me262 and was demonstrated to the RLM in April of 1941, while the Me262 prototype made it's first flight under piston power (Jumo210 mounted in the nose) a few days later (18 April 1941). It wouldn't be until 18 July 1942 that the Me262 flew under jet power for the first time.
The Jumo004 (and BMW003) was still on the bench, being developed in 1940, while the Hirth engine (HeS3, HeS8 ) had already been used to power the Heinkel aircraft.
Over the next year, progress was slow due to the ongoing engine problems. A second engine design, the HeS 30 was also undergoing development, both as an interesting engine in its own right, as well as a potential replacement for the HeS 8. In the meantime, alternative powerplants were considered, including the Argus As 014 pulsejet that famously powered the V-1 flying bomb.[4] (Using as many as eight was proposed.)[5]
By the end of 1943, however, the third prototype was fitted with refined versions of the HeS 8 engine and was ready for its next demonstration. On 22 December, a mock dogfight was staged for RLM officials in which the He 280 was matched against an Fw 190. Here, the jet demonstrated its vastly superior speed, completing four laps of an oval course before the Fw 190 could complete three.[citation needed] Finally, at this point the RLM became interested and placed an order for 20 pre-production test aircraft, to be followed by 300 production machines.
Engine problems continued to plague the project. In 1942, the RLM had ordered Heinkel to abandon the HeS 8 and HeS 30 to focus all development on a follow-on engine, the HeS 011, a much more advanced (and therefore problematic) design.[citation needed] Meanwhile, the first He 280 prototype had been re-equipped with pulsejets[5] and was towed aloft to test them. Bad weather caused the aircraft to ice up, however, and before the jets could be tested, pilot Helmut Schenk became the first person to put an ejection seat to use. The seat worked perfectly, but the aircraft was lost, and never found.
With the HeS 011 not expected for some time, Heinkel was forced to accept that it would have to use a competitor's engines, and selected the BMW 003. Unfortunately, this engine was also experiencing problems and delays, and in the meantime, the second He 280 prototype was re-engined with Junkers Jumo 004s while the next three airframes were earmarked for the BMW motor (which, in the end, would never be ready before the end of the He 280 project). The Jumo engines were much larger and heavier than the HeS 8 that the plane had been designed for, and while it flew well enough (for the first time on 16 March 1943), it was immediately obvious that this engine would be unsuitable in the long term.[citation needed] The aircraft was slower and generally less efficient than the Me 262.[2]
Less than two weeks later, on 27 March, Erhard Milch cancelled the project. The Jumo 004-powered Me 262 appeared to have most of the qualities of the He 280, but was better matched to its engine. Heinkel was ordered to abandon the He 280 and focus attention on bomber development and construction, something he remained bitter about until his death.
However, the fact remains, the He280 was presented to the RLM in full battle dress, demonstrated as a capable fighter aircraft, while the Me262 was still being developed. And the Jumo004 was too heavy for the He280, which was designed for the lighter Hirth engines.
So let's look back to 1938/39: the RLM yawned at the jet program. It didn't fully back and fund the program. So jet engine development was primarily left to the manufacturer. HAD the RLM fully backed and funded the programs (including exotic material aquisition), then the development would have moved forward instead of struggling along as it did historically.
...The He280 was presented only in late 1943 when the Me262 was in the process of being introduced...
Also, if the Jumo 109-004 was given major funding, then why did development languish?
There was continuous meddling by the RLM, in particular, Hans Mauch of the the RLM's "Engine Development Bureau". The Helmut Schelp, who replaced Mauch, ordered several changes, which set back the engine developers yet again. And it was during this confusion that the RLM ordered Heinkel to abandon work on the HeS 30 (which was developing well and showed great promise) and instead, work on the HeS 011.
Of all of the designs Müller brought with him, the HeS 30 was simplest and easiest to build. Müller had already built a test engine while still at Junkers, however it was only able to run at about half its designed RPM, which limited compression and required a continuous supply of external compressed air. The design was abandoned when Müller left, the Jumo team's simpler design being used instead. Müller promised Heinkel he could have the engine up and running on a testbed within one year of completing the move, a promise he was ultimately unable to keep.
Helmut Schelp, in charge of engine development at the RLM, refused to give Heinkel a production contract, an event Hans von Ohain claims brought Ernst Heinkel near tears. Schelp noted that while the design was excellent, BMW and Jumo were so far ahead they simply did not need another "Class I" engine – something that would prove ironic in another two years when both of those engines were still not operational. It also appears he had some misgivings about the compressor arrangement, but if this was the case it was never official. He also cancelled von Ohain's Heinkel HeS 8 at the same time.
The HeS 30 had a better Power-to-weight ratio than the contemporary 003 or 004, it was more compact, it was less complex, required less exotic materials and had better fuel economy....There was nothing this engine could offer that wasn't already on the table and would need redesigns to conform to the lack of necessary metals heat resistant metals, which delayed both of the Jumo and BMW projects.
The 262's 30mm cannon would have been a major short coming against the F-80's .50 guns. Such low muzzle velocity would have seriously affected the range and hit probability. The F-80 would have swept the skies.
A hit with a .22 beats a miss with a .44, you have to hit first. The 30mm cannon was designed to take down bombers, the primary target for 262 pilots. A group of hits from a .50 cal, likely using high explosive or incendiary rounds, if not outright destroying the aircraft, will damage sub-systems, causing the stricken fighter to disengage.How many hits would you need from the .50" hmgs to get the same effect as one hit from the 30mm?
Providing further development was possible.By the time the P-80 would have been available, the ME-262 would be faster and further developed.
no experienced jet pilots on the P-80 side.