Me262 vs. P-80 (1 Viewer)

[GrauGeist]

...the ra ra LW boys will try and tell you they were unstoppable...

But they were, right?

To put the Me262 in perspective, yes, it was a virtually unstobbale beast....for it's time.

Even though Avia continued to build them and the Czech airforce used them into the 1950's, really means nothing.

The Me262 was conceived in the late '30's and built and employed in the mid '40's. That was it's time. Even as the Me262 was going through development and pre-production trials, Willy Messerschmitt already had the next generation Me262 on the drawing board (HG series). *If* time and circumstances had allowed, you would have seen a much better airframe enter service. Much better in regards to it's speed dictated design, more reliable and powerful engines and better handling, armanent, etc.

However, unlike the Allies, German jet development was hampered by resources, a stable environment to develop and test and then the program came to a sudden halt. On the Allied side, they continued developing their technology and passed the German jet program's second generation and continued development (obviously) well beyond that point in time.

The Germans showed their ability to harness jet technology with the He178's successful flights in the late 1930's (with a design that would become commonplace in the 1950's and later), then had the world's first armed and battle capable combat jet (He280) before the Me262 ever flew under jet power. Then shortly after the Me262 entered the picture, you saw the first jet bomber enter the scene...however, as the war wore on, you no longer saw the advancement of technology, you saw the Germans in a desperate struggle to keep production for what they had and then grasping at straws in an effort to save themselves. This was the end of their innovative and progressive jet program.

Yes, German jet technology was impressive and virtually un-matched for it's time.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

The me 262 was the superior jet according to the US air force...the testing was done on a 1946 p80, which had some changes made to it.

It depends who you talk to. Chuck Yeager thought both aircraft were evenly matched.

An interesting tidbit about the p80 was that 548 mph was the fastest speed achieved, that particular aircraft was the p80 chosen to enter the famous race that the me 262 didnt take part in...i can only imagine how a me 262 built by US standards would have performed, especially considering that an me 262 described as being in very poor physical condition achieved 568 mph.

That's an opinion - I believe that jet was brought back during "Operation Lusty" and was probably representative of what was flying may 1945. When Tony LeVier's XP-80A blew up over Rosamond CA., I believe that aircraft was already pushed beyond 560 mph, but was still a test platform and no way a 'combat ready aircraft. BTW, pieces of that aircraft can still be found today if one looks hard enough, the crash site is right off a state highway.

262 was the fastest of the 1st gen jets, also the most heavily armed, but the build quality was poor and the engines suffered reliability. I have no idea on its handling in the horizontal, or even its climb or dive rates.

Another issue I think worth at least considering is the "stretchability" of a design. The first gen jets were all pretty limited with regards to engine power mostly, but also a range of other issues. Second gen of the same types were generally far more potent. compare a meteor F8 with an me 262, and the meteor is a far superior aircraft. For the germans we don't really have much information on how adaptable their designs were....the ra ra LW boys will try and tell you they were unstoppable, and yet, these designs were not stretched by the occupying powers after the war. For various reasons they were all found to have pretty severe limits on their applied technology potential.

Well said!

 

[Shortround6]

What makes things somewhat difficult to evaluate is that some of the allied programs slowed to a crawl at the end of the war. This was somewhat matched by the Eastern Europeans (and the Russians) being in no real position to do any real development or follow on work of WW II designs. Many of the German engineers going to either Russia or the United States within months (if not weeks) of the end of the war. Very few wound up in England. With post war air forces shrinking to 1/4 or even less of their end of WW II in Europe size by the end of 1946 the need to introduce new types of aircraft to service use was pretty small.
Things didn't start to heat back up until perhaps some time in 1947 with the Berlin crises of 1948 putting a real emphasis on the re-equipment of the air forces on both sides. However this also means that they had about 3 years to look things over at a more leisurely pace and make some improvements where they could and start some new programs. The British, being effectively broke at this time and the government unwilling to spend money on basic research, tended to hold onto the end of war designs a bit longer. Of course being able to fit much more powerful engines to some of these end of war designs did prolong their life. The Post war production of the German designs got no such help. And with the easing of raw materiel supply there was no good reason to continue with some of their design features, as implemented at the time, air cooled turbine blades would come back but not in welded sheet-metal form.
As far as some of the German "gee-whiz" stuff still on paper or even laying about as parts, consider the the Metrovick company had built several axial flow engines during the war (including a pair that powered the 5th Meteor to fly in Nov 1943) and had stared work on paper of the engine that would become the AS Sapphire in 1944, it just took until the early 50s to get any airborne in prototype aircraft and several more years for them to enter service in any numbers, this despite Wright taking out a licence in 1950 and going on to build a modified version as the J-65.
Granted development might have been suspended and it might have entered service in a lower powered/less finished form had circumstances been dire enough.
The more technically advanced an item is the longer it takes to go from drawing board/experimental shop to the field.

 

[soulezoo]

It depends who you talk to. Chuck Yeager thought both aircraft were evenly matched.

General Yeager told me that one time himself; we were both in the Beale AFB dispensary at the time.

 

[awack]

Some of the top speeds of the standard production me 262....US 568 mph at 20200 ft/, UK 568 mph, unknown altitude/...Germany ,564 mph at 16400 ft/ one of the highest speeds that i know for a me 262 is almost 580 mph, the reason for this speed isnt Exactly known, its either because of the low profile canopy, or unregulated 004 B4 engines producing 2205 pounds of thrust each vs 1980 pounds of thrust each.

Here are a few combat reports of the me 262, focusing on climb performance...me 262 went into a zoom climb being followed by p51, the 262 had left the initial p51 far behind, but they were more p51s waiting at higher altitudes, which when the 262 still in a vertical climb picked up the chase...one Mustange pilot said he had never seen such an sustained vertical climb.

Another involved spitfires, with a spitfire on his tail, the jet pilot decided to pull into a zoom, after a few moments the spitfire appeared to stall 6000 too 7000 ft below and the jet was no where near the limit of its climb...there are 1 or 2 reports of me 262s accelerating while in the vertical.

One of the more well known reports envolving one Mosquito and three escort p51s.... they spotted the me 262 at a lower altitude, one of the escort pilots yelled ( look at that SOB climb)...one of the Mosquito crew stated the jet was climbing like a bat out of hell, the me 262 in no time was making slashing attacks on the Mosquito, but the escorts kept yelling break left, break right etc, when you think about it, conventional fighters found it almost impossible to intercept a lone Mosquito even with an altitude advantage, just shows the unworldly capability of the me 262, as the me 262 attacked the group while in a climb and the p51 were not able to do anything about it ...absolutely amazing!!!!

Another incident involved a recon variant of the Spitfire mk 14, this was at altitude, the me 262 was was creeping up from below and behind, the spitfire pilot noticed the enemy AC below him so pulled his nose up and started to climb...something happened to let the 262 pilot know that had increased power some how by smoke or something, i cant remember, but of course this was a mistake, the spitfire pilot was confident that he could out climb anything especially at that altitude..the spitfire was shot down, the pilot survived, the jet pilot said that the spitfire pilot should have turned, there would have been no way he could have fallowed especially in the thin air.

 

[gjs238]

So what's the lesson learned here?
Prop drivers shouldn't underestimate the climb performance of a jet.

 

[pbehn]

So what's the lesson learned here?
Prop drivers shouldn't underestimate the climb performance of a jet.

Maybe when you think you are flying the dogs balls of an aircraft, prepare for a rude awakening.

I raced motorcylces and mine was as fast as most, suddenly a guy got a new level of tuning and I just couldnt live with him until I had mine re tuned (we had the same tuner) the difference was about 2MPH but it meant he blew me away 10m ahead into every corner. Facing a jet in a prop plane must have been a scary experience although I did read of a mossie evading a 262 by breaking at the last moment.

 

[pbehn]

So what's the lesson learned here?
Prop drivers shouldn't underestimate the climb performance of a jet.

Maybe when you think you are flying the dogs balls of an aircraft, prepare for a rude awakening.

I raced motorcylces and mine was as fast as most, suddenly a guy got a new level of tuning and I just couldnt live with him until I had mine re tuned (we had the same tuner) the difference was about 2MPH but it meant he blew me away 10m ahead into every corner. Facing a jet in a prop plane must have been a scary experience although I did read of a mossie evading a 262 by breaking at the last moment.

 

[pattern14]

Actually, the He 162 was the fastest first generation jet, and the Me 163 Komet the fastest combat aircraft. The Me 262 was slower than both. To the best of my research The He 162 had no kills officially confirmed, and the Komet claimed between 9 and 11, depending on your sources. The Arado Ar234 did very well as the worlds first operational jet recon/bomber, but will always be in the Me 262's shadow. Comparisons and test reports, anecdotal evidence etc will always conflict at some point, because there are so many variables. Gallands appraisal of the 262, Browns comment that the 262 would have made "cats meat" out of the meteor, the post war comparisons by members of Watsons squadron etc. And what about Howard Hughes allegedly being told he could not enter his own private Me 262 in an air race beacause officialdom did not want the P80 to be outclassed....Some of the outlandish claims in this thread are testimony that mixing emotion with facts produces perpetuated urban myths and old wives tales. The Me 262 shot down hundreds of allied aircraft, at a time when the allied airforces had total air superiority. The P80 was grounded because of technical glitches, and even the so called first "Jet vs Jet" victory in Korea has been discounted. The design lived on, as did the meteor, for quite a few years, but they were both obsolete virtually by the time they were operational.In the spring of 1945 the 262, poorly made from 2nd grade material in forest factories, was the most potent aircraft in existence.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

and even the so called first "Jet vs Jet" victory in Korea has been discounted.

If you're talking about the November 8, 1950 claim by Russel Brown, yes, there is strong evidence that he never shot down a MiG-15 on that day and it looks like the first jet to jet kill was scored on Nov 1 by a MiG-15 over an F-80.

 

[pattern14]

Yes, that is the one. It appears that Brown claimed the Mig, which according to the other side, returned to base undamaged. As an afterthought, some previous posters had suggested that the Mig 15 was developed from the Focke wulf Ta 183, but I suspect this is also incorrect. The Mk 3 version of this aircraft bears a superficial resemblance to the Mig, and the Soviets have always claimed it is an indigenous design. You would have to admit that there was definite advanced Luftwaffe aircraft plans, prototypes and mock ups that fell into the Russians' hands, and they, like the rest of the allies, benefitted from German research. The Ta 183 saw life briefly as the Pulqui in Argentina post war, but never really had its inherant design flaws ironed out, although it actually did fly a couple of armed operational missions. Peron ended up buying Meteors for Argentina's airforce, which Adolf Galland had a major hand in. A strange twist on the WW2 jets that never met, with Galland allegedly stating that the "perfect" weapon would have been the 262 fitted with the Rolls Royce engines. Obviously he was talking about the later model engines, and not the WW2 contemporaries. By the 1950's the Meteor had been sufficiently developed engine wise, and you really can't directly compare the two. In one of my advanced Luftwaffe project hardcovers, it shows a picture of the respective wing profiles of a Mig 15 and an F 86 facing each other, with the caption "Messerschmitt vs Focke Wulf". The author was inferring that the two opposing jets owed their developmental heritage to two seperate companies and schools of thought. Any logical analysis of the closing months of WW2 would support the idea that 2nd generation Jets were just around the corner theoretically, but with no industrial back up, it was never going to happen.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Yes, that is the one. It appears that Brown claimed the Mig, which according to the other side, returned to base undamaged. As an afterthought, some previous posters had suggested that the Mig 15 was developed from the Focke wulf Ta 183, but I suspect this is also incorrect.

Totally incorrect, especially in it's construction. The engine bay of a MiG-15 is similar to an F-80 if anything else.

The Mk 3 version of this aircraft bears a superficial resemblance to the Mig, and the Soviets have always claimed it is an indigenous design. You would have to admit that there was definite advanced Luftwaffe aircraft plans, prototypes and mock ups that fell into the Russians' hands, and they, like the rest of the allies, benefitted from German research. The Ta 183 saw life briefly as the Pulqui in Argentina post war, but never really had its inherant design flaws ironed out, although it actually did fly a couple of armed operational missions. Peron ended up buying Meteors for Argentina's airforce, which Adolf Galland had a major hand in. A strange twist on the WW2 jets that never met, with Galland allegedly stating that the "perfect" weapon would have been the 262 fitted with the Rolls Royce engines. Obviously he was talking about the later model engines, and not the WW2 contemporaries. By the 1950's the Meteor had been sufficiently developed engine wise, and you really can't directly compare the two. In one of my advanced Luftwaffe project hardcovers, it shows a picture of the respective wing profiles of a Mig 15 and an F 86 facing each other, with the caption "Messerschmitt vs Focke Wulf". The author was inferring that the two opposing jets owed their developmental heritage to two seperate companies and schools of thought. Any logical analysis of the closing months of WW2 would support the idea that 2nd generation Jets were just around the corner theoretically, but with no industrial back up, it was never going to happen.

The only notable thing really "taken" from German research on both the MiG and F-85 was the 35~ degree swept wing design. North American was developing the FJ-1 in 1944 which became the design basis of the F-86 once it was decided to go with a swept wing design, the rest is history.

 

[pattern14]

Thats right; the rest is history, but many people still believe in the myth of Nazi technological superiority. While you can trace the heritage of the Saturn V back to the V2, I've always been dubious of the claims of the Luft 46 brigade who insist that "if the war had lasted longer etc". The OP wanted an opinion poll on the Me 262 vs The P80, and there were lots of claims and counter claims, but they were never ever going to meet in combat, so any comparisons would be academic at best. Given the poor tactical use of the Me 262,and the conditions it fought under, its achievements were remarkable. The allies had no need to rush their jets into action, as the war would be won with conventional weapons backed by a considerable industrial supply line. So the Me 262 became the stuff of legends, while the P80 and Meteor were "also rans" that were eventually outclassed by the opposition in the Korean conflict. No amount of discussion in this forum will change the Me 262's entrenched "worlds first Jet fighter" status in the urban myths of the general populace, even though this is historically incorrect. Just look in the modelling forums, both static and R/C, and the amount of recognition and popularity the Me 262 enjoys is immense.This is despite being operational for around 8 months, and then literally disappearing into folklore. You hardly ever see a Meteor or P80 as a kit or scratch build, even though they continued on for decades in various guises and roles. What ever potential the 262 had was never realised, and even Willy himself never saw it as anything more than an interim design that was pressed into service out of sheer necessity.

 

[GrauGeist]

No amount of discussion in this forum will change the Me 262's entrenched "worlds first Jet fighter" status in the urban myths of the general populace, even though this is historically incorrect.

That's the problem with many legends, is that in some cases, being elevated to "super star" status eclipses the pioneers that arrived first. Sure, the Me262 was the first jet fighter to see combat, but the He280 was the first armed combat jet and yet very few people know of it or how how close it came to being a production fighter, arriving over the skies of Europe at a time when the Luftwaffe still had air superiority.

And has been mentioned before, even if the war lasted 6 months more or 10 months more, the second generations jets may have made a debut. But to what effect? No resources for mass production, no fuel for their engines and no pool of skilled pilots to equip them.

They would have been simply over-run by the ever-increasing Allied fighters no matter how advanced they were.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I'll beat this horse again - actually the Meteor was the world's first jet fighter to enter service in an operational squadron. The first Me 262 units were "test" squadrons although they "tested" the aircraft operationally. Semantics but fact.

 

[GrauGeist]

On 26 July 1944, an Me262 of Ekdo262 attacked and damaged a PR Mosquito of 540 Squadron.

The Meteor first encountered an "enemy" on 27 July 1944, when three Meteors of 616 Squadron intercepted a V-1, though due to weapon malfunction, it was not a successful intercept. However, on 4 August, after addressing gun jamming issues, Meteors of 616 Squadron successfully downed two V-1s.

So, technically speaking, the Me262 drew "blood" first, by 24 hours and in a broader sense, the Me262 was used in combat to oppose Allied aircraft of various design while the Meteor spend the bulk of it's operational service intercepting "buzz-bombs" and later performing ground attack against Luftwaffe airfields for the remaining two months of the war.

The irony in all of this, is the only true jet on jet encounters, was when Ar234 bombers struck the airfield at Fassberg, where 616 Squadron's Meteors were stationed.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

616 Squadron went operational with the Meteor before July 21, 1944. Ekdo262 was a testing squadron but flew operational sorties. JG-7, the first real 262 fighter squadron was formed January 1945

 

[GrauGeist]

Sure Joe, but which one saw combat first?

This is where the history of the first jets gets tricky:
The He280 was the world's first armed combat capable jet and while proved to be a sound and effective design, was not put into production.

The Meteor was the first combat jet to reach operational status but did not see combat in a traditional "foe versus foe" role.

The Me262 was the world's second combat jet to see operational status, but was the world's first jet to engage an enemy aircraft as well as seeing combat at all levels.

And if all that is not confusing enough, the first Allied jet to fly was not the Meteor, but the P-59, which took it's first flight on October 1942.

And to the advocates who say that "if the war lasted another 6 months...etc. etc." the de Havilland Vampire was on the verge of production by war's end and the the P-80 was rolling off the production line and ready to head to the front in the final days of the war.

So the combat jet's early days is an intertwined (and very interesting) history.

 

[pattern14]

Splitting hairs I know, but the Me 262 was the first operational jet fighter, having actually engaged a Mosquito prior to any other jet powered aircraft firing a shot. Even though this Me 262 was not "officially" operational, it still happened. Officially, the Meteor sqadron was the first, but the262 beat it to the punch, although still classed as experimental at the time. The He 280 was the worlds first jet fighter, true, but never given a contract for development. It is extremely unlikely it would have been ready any earlier given the Heinkel engine problems that were never really ironed out, plus some airframe glitches revolving around the twin tail. Once again potential never realised. As much as it does tend to stick a little in the Allies throat, the Germans pretty much had most of the firsts; First Jet fighter, first operational jet fighter, first kill by a jet, First single engined jet fighter, first Jet recon, jet bomber, Jet fighter escorting jet bomber etc etc etc. Not that it did any good in the long run, but undeniable historical fact.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Agree all the way around...