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balburdio said:Actualy it was, by then, almost ABSOLUTELY stealth!, since most WW2 radars were incapable of picking up things like birds.
And the radar cross section of the HO-229 was lower than the F-117 one(a much larger aircraft).
FLYBOYJ said:balburdio said:The fact is, the germans lost the war because of Hitler megalomaniac ideias, not because they didn't had the "right stuff"
Agree - my point is the P-80 did improve and would of improved much quicker had the war lasted longer. All the mods that went into the "B" and "C" models were ready to be implemented in 1945, the government didn't want any disruption in the production line. Into the "C" models and into the T-33 the aircraft served well, it was reliable and easy to fly.
The statement that many pilots died while flying the early P-80 is not really true. We know about Bong and Tony LeVeir had a compressor wheel come apart on one he was flying, but the P-80 was no more deadly than any other early jet, it fact i believe it was more reliable. What killed pilots in early jets were the fact that they were hard to spool up (engine thrust) and hard to slow down. Many pilots (German, British and American) were killed during takeoff and landing because of this, you had to always be 30 seconds ahead of the aircraft as opposed to high performance WW2 piston engine aircraft
balburdio said:FLYBOYJ said:balburdio said:The fact is, the germans lost the war because of Hitler megalomaniac ideias, not because they didn't had the "right stuff"
Agree - my point is the P-80 did improve and would of improved much quicker had the war lasted longer. All the mods that went into the "B" and "C" models were ready to be implemented in 1945, the government didn't want any disruption in the production line. Into the "C" models and into the T-33 the aircraft served well, it was reliable and easy to fly.
The statement that many pilots died while flying the early P-80 is not really true. We know about Bong and Tony LeVeir had a compressor wheel come apart on one he was flying, but the P-80 was no more deadly than any other early jet, it fact i believe it was more reliable. What killed pilots in early jets were the fact that they were hard to spool up (engine thrust) and hard to slow down. Many pilots (German, British and American) were killed during takeoff and landing because of this, you had to always be 30 seconds ahead of the aircraft as opposed to high performance WW2 piston engine aircraft
Veterans praised the Mustang, but not a single one had a nice word for the P-80. There is a reson for that!
P-80 development and early operational problems were eventualy mitigated, but the shooting star realy earned it's name, the hard way.
In the end of the war, the huckebein was ready for testing, wind tunnel tests revealed incredible (for the time) all round performances. It wold become the follow on for the Me-262 and the volksjagger.
The B and C models were only available in 1947, after the US got it's hands on secret german research material.
One of the german inspired mods was the ejector seat, absent in early models.
FLYBOYJ said:balburdio said:Actualy it was, by then, almost ABSOLUTELY stealth!, since most WW2 radars were incapable of picking up things like birds.
And the radar cross section of the HO-229 was lower than the F-117 one(a much larger aircraft).
Very true, but I remembering reading that the Stealth characteristic was more by accident rather than an intentional design characteristic. The Mosquito was "Stealthy" not by intent...
FLYBOYJ said:The initial design for the first P-80 "Hot Seat" was started in 1944, Kelly Johnson stated that during a Lockheed management Club meeting I attended in 1982. It was stated by him that the last thing the AAF wanted to do was disrupt the production line. I don't know what veterans you are referring to disliking the P-80, Robin Olds flew -38s, -51s and thre P/F-80 and talked about new technology teething pains, but that's about it.
The Seats developed after the war had some German influance, in fact US Air Force research showed that the Heinkel ballistic system was not powerful enough to use on anticipated Air Force jet aircraft, as the catapult velocity was insufficient for safe ejection at the new Lockheed P-80's maximum operating speed.
balburdio said:The mosquito "stealthness" was an accident, but not the the HO-229 's
It was designed with that intent.
evangilder said:If you are referring to the Jauman absorber, it was not paint and was only used on submarines as the absorbent material was 3 inches thick. Radar Absorbent Material or RAM, was concurrently being developed in America, Germany and Britain. To call it a German invention is a bit of a stretch. I also don't think it would have been practical for an airplane in 1945. If it had, there would have been planes made with that material in the 1950s.
balburdio said:As for the last argument, same thing goes for the swept wing, the ME-262 and the He-162 had swept-wings, but only 10 years lather wold the US adopt a swept-wing fighter (the F-86)
Yea and I hate to say it, WHO WON THE WAR!balburdio said:Yeap, and you expect those guys to be telling the truth, right!!
Sure!! American did made one great development in aerospace science back then: spin doctoring!
book1182 said:I have to agree with most people I think and go with the P-80. It had the benefit of coming later than the Me-262. I think if the Me-262 could have been developed more it might have been a closer fight. The Me-262 you have to remember was thrown into combat as a last attempt to stop the allies in world war 2. While the P-80 got to sit it out because the piston engine airplanes were winning for the allies. I would say the if the Me-262 would have had time it would have been just a good as the P-80.