Meanwhile .. in Red Square

[Sid327]

Yeah, the Crimea and Ukraine were thinly disguised invasions.

In the past few years, Estonia has had escalating tensions with Russia where there's been several demonstrations break out (hauntingly similar to the Ukraine demonstrations) and several of the demonstrators arrested are Russian FSO.
Other incidents include Estonian border guards who are kidnapped on Estonian soil by Russian FSB and held for mock trials as "spies".
Putin is playing a very dangerous game...

You have to look at both sides of the story.
MSM is mostly fake news, that's pretty well know by most free thinking people now.

East Ukraine is populated by more than 8 million ethnic Russians who want nothing to do with the EU. Can you blame them?
Russians in Ukraine - Wikipedia

Ukraine turned like this before in WW2 where the (mostly) Western part of Ukraine tried to side with Germany and persecuted the Jews big time.
Lviv pogroms (1941) - Wikipedia

The Northern, Eastern and Southern parts of Ukraine stayed loyal to the Soviets.

In 1991 following the collapse of the Soviet Union, NATO made an agreement with the Russian Federation that it would never encroach on the actual boundaries of the Russian Federation and would leave a Buffer Zone out of mutual respect.
It failed to do this.
Why not look at it from Russia's point of view.

There was a time I blindly believed everything the UK/USA/France and ''allies'' did was for the good, without question.
I don't anymore. My bias has gone, I just try and get a balanced view and a better understanding.

I just wish we'd all get along a lot better, with a more easy-going understanding for others, rather than keep up a chest thumping and war-mongering type of mentality.
War is not funny.

 

[michaelmaltby]

... very true. Crimea was Tatar land. And Khrushchev, when USSR Premier, declared that Ukraine was a distinct SSR. Premier K was himself a Ukrainian.

 

[Sid327]

... very true. Crimea was Tatar land. And Khrushchev, when USSR Premier, declared that Ukraine was a distinct SSR. Premier K was himself a Ukrainian.

I don't know much about this event. This happened in about 1954 IIRC(?) It was never ratified officially through the Soviet government but given as a ''gift'' by him for some celebration. I believe (?)
Not that it matters much now, but the Canadian globalresearch link I read was a complete eye opener for me.
Along with the western belief that Crimea was annexed. ....If that's the case, then why is it under sanctions?!

Politics. It would be better if everyone just got along with each other, without the manipulation, or overthrowing of sovereign governments, or the threatening of sanctions because other countries don't have the same beliefs. All countries have their problems. One thing I learned when living in Africa is that you can't use 1st world reasoning in any other country you visit (though the saying there in Africa was "You can't use first world reasoning in a third world country'').
I've met and lived with Russians, they are nowhere near as bad as the western media makes out.
I have visited Ukraine about half a dozen times, both the West side and the East. There is a stark difference in the minds of the people.
I have lived in China, it's an amazing culture with some of the most interesting things I've ever seen (that goes for the educated women too)!
Their education system too, it's way better than what I have seen in other countries.

 

[Dimlee]

You have to look at both sides of the story.
MSM is mostly fake news, that's pretty well know by most free thinking people now.

East Ukraine is populated by more than 8 million ethnic Russians who want nothing to do with the EU. Can you blame them?
Russians in Ukraine - Wikipedia

Ukraine turned like this before in WW2 where the (mostly) Western part of Ukraine tried to side with Germany and persecuted the Jews big time.
Lviv pogroms (1941) - Wikipedia

The Northern, Eastern and Southern parts of Ukraine stayed loyal to the Soviets.

In 1991 following the collapse of the Soviet Union, NATO made an agreement with the Russian Federation that it would never encroach on the actual boundaries of the Russian Federation and would leave a Buffer Zone out of mutual respect.
It failed to do this.
Why not look at it from Russia's point of view.

There was a time I blindly believed everything the UK/USA/France and ''allies'' did was for the good, without question.
I don't anymore. My bias has gone, I just try and get a balanced view and a better understanding.

I just wish we'd all get along a lot better, with a more easy-going understanding for others, rather than keep up a chest thumping and war-mongering type of mentality.
War is not funny.

Both sides? OK.
Here is my side. Ethnic Russian, born and raised in Sevastopol (Crimea). Descendant of two military dynasties. My ancestors lived in Crimea since about middle of XIX century (or may be earlier, but this is so far as surviving written accounts tell).
So, in your books, I'm one of "8 million ethnic Russians who want nothing to do with the EU".
There is one "small" problem. Personally, I want nothing to do with Russian Federation who occupied my home city. Yes, the annexation is not just the "western belief". And despite all my scepticism towards the Brussels bureaucracy, I consider EU to be rather practical and decent choice - among all others.
Am I the exception, minority in 8 mln? But no poll or research support your bold claim about "want nothing to...". Integration with EU is supported by roughly 55% to over 60% of Ukraine's population. It is, indeed, lower in three eastern regions (oblasts) where it goes down to 30%-35% but neither of those regions are populated by ethnic Russians only.
I kindly ask you to study more about the countries you voice your opinions about. At least some vital statistics. Feel free to ask live (and not imaginary) people like myself.

About 1941...
There is another bold statement of yours about regions of Ukraine (USSR) stayed loyal. WWII was very complex maze of complicated events and the USSR was not an exception. Not "regions" but millions of people across occupied territories who made their choice of loyalty - to one regime or another or to their own case of independence. And not just in Ukraine. Lokot Republic was located in RSFSR (Russian Republic) in the very heart of historical Russia. Overall most Soviet collaborators were, not surpisingly, Russians by ethnicity.
Again, I kindly ask you to study more. Assuming you don't read Russian or Ukrainian (Polish, etc), why not to start with "Bloodlands" of T.Snyder, for example.

Last but not the least - again about my Crimea.
Transfer of the Crimean region from one republic to another was done in full accordance with the USSR laws. The case itself was not unique and there were several other territory transfers/swaps in the Soviet period. The myth about "the gift" was born afterwards during Brezhnev's era when earlier leader was demonised in typical Soviet fashion. This myth was buried for awhile later on, only to be discovered again and brought to propaganda in Russian Federation in post USSR period.
And by the way, Nikita Khruschev was not in a position to make any "gifts" or to bend the legislation in January 1954. He signed no documents either (Voroshilov and Malenkov did). Khruschev was the Party leader but just for 4 months and he was not strong enough. His position strengthened later in 1955-1956 and he became the ultimate leader in 1957 after ousting "old guard" (Molotov, Zhukov, etc.). I could add as well that the transfer itself was long term project devised years before 1954 and there were pressing economic issues... but I'll stop here.

 

[Dimlee]

... very true. Crimea was Tatar land. And Khrushchev, when USSR Premier, declared that Ukraine was a distinct SSR. Premier K was himself a Ukrainian.

Crimea was the land of Crimean Tatars or Qirimlar before it was conquered by the Russian Empire in XVIII century. Then the number of Qirimlar dropped down as new settlers arrived and old residents left or were forced to leave. Wikipedia has brief but solid article which contains links to more detailed information.

Nikita Khruschev became Prime Minister of the USSR in 1958.

Ukraine as the Socialist Republic was declared in 1919. As the Soviet Socialist Republic (SSR) it became the founder of USSR in 1922.

Khruschev never called himself Ukrainian (but he called himself "internationalist"). He was born in that part of Kursk region (Kurskaya gubernia) where 99% of population were velikorossy (ethnic Russians) according to census. There is no verifiable information about any Ukrainian ancestors in his family tree.

 

[michaelmaltby]

Thanks for great posts, D.

 

[GrauGeist]

Agreed...great posts.

My Fiancé was born in Burgas, Bulgaria and grew up under Soviet control.

Her Grandfather, who served with distinction in the Royal Bulgarian army was persecuted by the Communists because he (and many others) refused to "join" the Communist party.

From my personal experiance with Bulgarians, the majority wants nothing to do with Russia and they want to join the EU and virtually every person I've met, that's lived in a former Warsaw Pact nation, also wants little to do with Russia.

 

[Sid327]

Hello Dimlee,

I did say ''I just try and get a balanced view and a better understanding."

I am not an authority. Nor profess to be. Yes I do have a few friends I'm in regular contact with in Ukraine, from both sides of the fence.
What you choose to do is your right.

What I choose to do is mine.

It's not Stalism anymore. History is full of one country controlling another. How far should we go back to correct the impossible?

The U.K. as an example is not populated by English people (Britons and Celts) it's mostly German (Anglo Saxon).
We all have a cross to bear. I just try and see both sides of it and choose to believe the Canadian website (previous post) before any person I don't know.
I always thought forgiveness is a virtue. I understand the USSR was not a good thing. Neither was Germany 70 years ago, but nobody hates on the Germans.

If we met in person on the street, who's to say we wouldn't enjoy a coffee and a chat together.
But too often on the internet it's hard to judge who is on the ''other side'' of a keyboard.

 

[Sid327]

Agreed...great posts.

My Fiancé was born in Burgas, Bulgaria and grew up under Soviet control.
Her Grandfather, who served with distinction in the Royal Bulgarian army was persecuted by the Communists because he (and many others) refused to "join" the Communist party.
From my personal experiance with Bulgarians, the majority wants nothing to do with Russia and they want to join the EU and virtually every person I've met, that's lived in a former Warsaw Pact nation, also wants little to do with Russia.

Hi GrauGeist,

I have no comment other than suggesting you might be interested in some recent reports:-

Why is Bulgaria the EU's most unhappy country?

 

[michaelmaltby]

... sorry, I thought Boris Johnson's GB was the most unhappy EU camper ..

 

[Sid327]

... sorry, I thought Boris Johnson's GB was the most unhappy EU camper ..

Hahaha!
....No idea. I don't understand much about what's going on in the U.K. I know they voted to leave in 2016 and it still hasn't happened, most likely due to lack of integrity on those usually very honest types known as politicians.

 

[Dimlee]

I am not an authority. Nor profess to be. Yes I do have a few friends I'm in regular contact with in Ukraine, from both sides of the fence.

Dear Sid...
I'm not an authority myself and I'm not trying to teach anyone.
It's up to you - as to any free person - to choose whatever you like.
But I do believe that such choices should be based on facts and not on myths and not on unfounded and biased assumptions.

In Russian/Soviet classic novel "Heart of a Dog" one of the main characters, Prof.Preobrazhensky says the following to his patient:
"...and God saves you, do not read Soviet newspapers before the dinner". This advise remains valid today, just replace newspapers with other media.

Good luck with your East European studies.

 

[Sid327]

Dear Sid...
I'm not an authority myself and I'm not trying to teach anyone.
It's up to you - as to any free person - to choose whatever you like.
But I do believe that such choices should be based on facts and not on myths and not on unfounded and biased assumptions.

In Russian/Soviet classic novel "Heart of a Dog" one of the main characters, Prof.Preobrazhensky says the following to his patient:
"...and God saves you, do not read Soviet newspapers before the dinner". This advise remains valid today, just replace newspapers with other media.

Good luck with your East European studies.

Agree wholeheartedly about newspapers and MSM.
Which is not confined to Russia at all. Just a search using ''fake news'' on Youtube or google is enough to convince.

 

[GrauGeist]

Hi GrauGeist,

I have no comment other than suggesting you might be interested in some recent reports:-

Why is Bulgaria the EU's most unhappy country?

Um...you do realize that Vesti is a Russian news source, right?

And you do realize I'm speaking directly from the source and not repeating something I saw on a Russian YouTube channel...right?

наздраве

 

[Sid327]

Um...you do realize that Vesti is a Russian news source, right?

And you do realize I'm speaking directly from the source and not repeating something I saw on a Russian YouTube channel...right?

наздраве

Hi GrauGeist,

Yes I know about Vesti.

They (Vesti) are probably as bad as the BBC .....and others that you could make a long list of, no doubt.

It was the results from the EU websites that would be considered more informative.

наздраве

 

[The Basket]

Odd that you saying that you dismiss western propoganda but you is full on for Soviet.... Oops... Russian propoganda.

Ain't that a twist.

Do you know which propoganda I believe?

Not a goddam word of it. Not a single word.

 

[Sid327]

Odd that you saying that you dismiss western propoganda but you is full on for Soviet.... Oops... Russian propoganda.
Ain't that a twist.
Do you know which propoganda I believe?
Not a goddam word of it. Not a single word.

It just show's how much people differ with their interpretation of written word.
In post #221 I thought I had explained it sufficiently

There was a time I blindly believed everything the UK/USA/France and ''allies'' did was for the good, without question.
I don't anymore. My bias has gone, I just try and get a balanced view and a better understanding.
I just wish we'd all get along a lot better, with a more easy-going understanding for others, rather than keep up a chest thumping and war-mongering type of mentality.
War is not funny.

Different people just see what they want or expect to see.
I don't take sides. This whole thread started with knocking the Russians. They are fellow human beings just like everybody else, with feelings just like everybody else, yet myself and a few others were not ''Western'' biased, but had more moderate views .....and that is an obvious sin, is it?

 

[The Basket]

Not interested.
You set your stall out early and I ain't buyin.

 

[Sid327]

Not interested.
You set your stall out early and I ain't buyin.

LOL,
I don't post here to convince you.
I tried being mannerly, you couldn't.

I learned long ago there's no such thing as right or wrong, just opinions.

 

[michaelmaltby]

how about facts?