Messerschmitt 109 Improvements

[swampyankee]

The two men became partners and life long friends. A much better approach than long patent suit battles.

Certainly, much better, and also, I think, something of an indication of how much interchange went on in the world of aerodynamics: Max Munk emigrated from Germany, coming to the US in 1920, von Karman came to the US in 1930, Santos-Dumont migrated from Brazil to France, von Mises, from Germany to Turkey(1933) to the US (1939). I'm sure there were others.

 

[nuuumannn]

I'm sure there were others.

Wsiewolod Jakimiuk from Poland - worked with Sigmund Pulawski with PZL on the P-11 gull winged fighter - went to Canada and became Chief Engineer with De Havilland Canada. The Chipmunk was his first design with the Canadian company. German Carl Clemens Bucker of the German firm of the same name, which produced the Jungmann and Jungmeister biplanes and the Bestmann trainer started Svenska Aero AB after WW1 (actually a subsidiary of Heinkel and not a strictly Swedish firm); the two biplane trainers that he lent his name to were designed by a Swede, A.J. Andersson... Many more, I suspect.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

There wasn't much bombing in 1942 when the Bf109G was first produced. The German situation was not that great at that time.

But there was money spent to get the "frozen" basic design into production. As stated, there would be the need for re-design, stress analysis, tool design and manufacture and last the facility set up. Fact is German industry WAS getting bombed (the first bombs fell on the Ruhr in May 1940) and although this hypothetical mod wouldn't be that difficult I find it impractical during that period, resources "would have" been better spent developing turbine technology.

 

[stona]

Alexander Lippisch nearly came to Vickers Supermarine in 1938 according to Beverly Shenstone. The offer was made after the two men attended a lecture at the Royal Aeronautical Society. Those two also remained life long friends, despite having been on different sides during the war.
Shenstone had some influence on the American decision to take Lippisch to the US post war.
Cheers
Steve

 

[Milosh]

But there was money spent to get the "frozen" basic design into production. As stated, there would be the need for re-design, stress analysis, tool design and manufacture and last the facility set up. Fact is German industry WAS getting bombed (the first bombs fell on the Ruhr in May 1940) and although this hypothetical mod wouldn't be that difficult I find it impractical during that period, resources "would have" been better spent developing turbine technology.

In 1940 the Bf09 went thro a major redesign > 109E to 109F. A little more effort and the rear vision on the Bf109 could have been improved at that time.

How many bombs fell on Regensburg and Augsburg in 1940?

 

[rank amateur]

In 1940 most people in Germany figured the war was almost won and the bf 109 the hottest bird in the air anyway.

 

[davebender]

DB603 engine mass production projected for 1941.

Now 1937 RLM can announce a 1939 fighter competition for an aircraft that will succeed or supplement Me-109 in production.
.....Powered by DB603 engine. Prototype engines will be provided for testing.
.....MG151/20 hub cannon. Prototype weapons will be provided for testing.
.....Bubble canopy. RLM will consider different canopy variants as long as visibility is considerably better then Me-109.
.....Internal fuel at least 600 liters (i.e. 50% more then Me-109). Must be in fuselage tank to facilitate roll rate and increase protection.
.....250kg fuselage hard point. Prototypes will be tested with 300 liter drop tank and 250kg bomb.
.....Wide track landing gear.
.....Estimated airframe production cost no greater then Me-109 production cost +25%.

1939. Luftwaffe single engine fighter competition.
.....Let the chips fall where they may. I am certain at least one contestant will be entered by Messerschmitt.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

In 1940 the Bf09 went thro a major redesign > 109E to 109F. A little more effort and the rear vision on the Bf109 could have been improved at that time.

Again easily done, but would have it been worth it. I don't think you realize what it takes to re-tool and set up production lines for a major mod. In any event by 1943 the Messerschmitt factory was flattened, I doubt this effort would have prevented this.

 

[silence]

DB603 engine mass production projected for 1941.

Now 1937 RLM can announce a 1939 fighter competition for an aircraft that will succeed or supplement Me-109 in production.
.....Powered by DB603 engine. Prototype engines will be provided for testing.
.....MG151/20 hub cannon. Prototype weapons will be provided for testing.
.....Bubble canopy. RLM will consider different canopy variants as long as visibility is considerably better then Me-109.
.....Internal fuel at least 600 liters (i.e. 50% more then Me-109). Must be in fuselage tank to facilitate roll rate and increase protection.
.....250kg fuselage hard point. Prototypes will be tested with 300 liter drop tank and 250kg bomb.
.....Wide track landing gear.
.....Estimated airframe production cost no greater then Me-109 production cost +25%.

1939. Luftwaffe single engine fighter competition.
.....Let the chips fall where they may. I am certain at least one contestant will be entered by Messerschmitt.

Sounds suspiciously like a Dora-14 or -15!

 

[stona]

In 1940 the Bf09 went thro a major redesign > 109E to 109F. A little more effort and the rear vision on the Bf109 could have been improved at that time.

How many bombs fell on Regensburg and Augsburg in 1940?

They didn't change the rear fuselage apart from, after a few broke, strengthening it, and then by simply riveting some reinforcement strips in place (initially on the outside as a quick fix). I've argued all along that the rear vision could have been improved, but not easily. Lowering the fuselage would need considerably more than "a little more effort" and, importantly, the will to do it.

The F series suffered some serious teething problems. The empennage ripping off at frame 9 wasn't the only problem. There were problems with the tail plane and elevators, skin wrinkling on the wings and at least some cases of the wings separating from the fuselage. Fastening bolts for the wing tips also became loose and the aileron fabric covering had problems. In other words there were issues with just about every single air frame component that was altered. There were other problems with various "new" features. The feed for the MG 151/15 ammunition, positioned in the port wing jammed in flight. This was partially solved in the field by inserting small wooden chocks, but not solved completely until the MG 151/20 became available in mid '41. Pilots liked the centre line cannon, but only when it actually worked. There were also problems with the throttle control which had been redesigned.
Changing anything is a risky business. There is a tendency to assume that any changes (as seen in various armaments threads) are much simpler than they actually were.

Bf 109 F production was held up considerably by the first phase of the Me 210 debacle at Regensburg. Messerschmitt didn't need RAF bombers to slow them down!

Cheers

Steve

 

[Milosh]

Again easily done, but would have it been worth it. I don't think you realize what it takes to re-tool and set up production lines for a major mod. In any event by 1943 the Messerschmitt factory was flattened, I doubt this effort would have prevented this.

Actually I do know what it takes.

The bombing of Augsburg in World War II included one British RAF and two USAAF bombing raids against the German city of Augsburg on 17 April 1942 and 25/26 February 1944. What are the other dates when the Mtt factories were bombed?

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Actually I do know what it takes.

The bombing of Augsburg in World War II included one British RAF and two USAAF bombing raids against the German city of Augsburg on 17 April 1942 and 25/26 February 1944. What are the other dates when the Mtt factories were bombed?

Wiener Neustadt - August (2x), October, November 1943

There's more and some by the RAF, I'll have to look them up

 

[stona]

I have just read another example of where a really minor change in specification had severe ramifications for a production aircraft.
The Westland Whirlwind was originally designed with a shelf for the TR9 radio behind the pilot and under the cockpit canopy. Other equipment in the fuselage would be accessed by removing the upholstered cover from the tubular frame of the pilot's seat. This access was denied when armour behind the seat was introduced. A new rack to hold the TR1133 VHF radio and desert ration packs were introduced in the fuselage and required a large access door to be fitted in the starboard side of the fuselage. You can NOT just cut a hole and fit a door in a stressed skin constructed monocoque! Substantial strengthening of the fuselage structure was required and this had a knock on effect on the first production run. The first twenty five airframes effectively became non-standard prototypes.
Seemingly minor modifications are nearly always much more difficult than the might appear. We are talking about fitting one access panel/door.
Cheers
Steve

 

[davebender]

Fw-190C (i.e. DB603 variant) would certainly be a contender but there will be others too.

I would expect something similar to DB603 powered Me-309 in competition. Probably also a larger DB603 powered version of He-100 that looks a lot like the historical Ki-61 (with conventional cooling system). Both would be tough competition for Dr. Tank's design.

 

[Milosh]

In any event by 1943 the Messerschmitt factory was flattened, I doubt this effort would have prevented this.

Wiener-Neustaedter certainly wasn't flattened in 1943 for it went from producing 2200 in 1943 to 3177 in 1944. ERLA went from 2012 to 4472 and MTT Regensburg went from 2164 to 6329.
Volume 14 - Wiener Neustaedter Flugzeugwerke Wiener Neustadt Austria - Page 9 - WWII Archives

 

[stona]

The complex at Regensburg was attacked surprisingly infrequently.
The 8th AF dropped about 7% of its ordnance on ALL aircraft industry targets in Europe. The RAF and 15th AF somewhat less, about 3%. Overall about 4% of total munitions dropped were dropped on the German aircraft industry, about 20,000 tons.
Nonetheless, according to German sources about 75% of aircraft plants were destroyed or seriously damaged by the 1944 bombing aimed at the industry.
Cheers
Steve

 

[swampyankee]

In addition to the physical damage to the plants, the bombing must have had some detrimental effects on worker productivity because of lack of sleep, worry about coming home to a bomb crater instead of an apartment, having to detour around roads blocked because of building damage, etc.

 

[davebender]

If that were me I'd be outraged the enemy attacked my family in violation of Hague Conventions. Which would make me fight or work even harder to defeat them.

 

[Ivan1GFP]

Pardon me for changing the subject slightly, but it seems like we have a few folks here that are quite knowledgeable about the 109.
Does anyone here have good dimensional drawings for a 109F-109K? I have been looking for locations of frames, widths and height at each station, etc.

Thanks.
- Ivan.

 

[stona]

If that were me I'd be outraged the enemy attacked my family in violation of Hague Conventions.

Precisely which article of which set of conventions?

If you defend a town or anything else it becomes a legitimate target. Now you have a ridiculous chicken and egg argument which is futile.

Cheers

Steve