Midway with expanded Kido Butai? (1 Viewer)

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Why is everything that the Japanese did after June 1942 seen as a kneejerk reaction to the outcome of MIdway? Some of it was but some of it went way back in IJN planning in case of just such an event.

There are two strands to the story:-
1. Subsidisation of merchant ship construction from the late 1920s of vessels considered suitable for conversion to carriers in the event of war.

Asama Maru class (3 ships completed 1929/30) - all lost before conversion could be carried out
Nitta Maru class (3 ships ordered 1937) - bacame the CVE Taiyo, Unyo & Shinyo
Argentina Maru class (2 ships ordered 1938) - name ship became CVE Kaiyo with second lost before conversion could occur.
Kashiwara Maru class (2 ships ordered 1938/39) - became Hiyo & Junyo.

Hiyo & Junyo were acquired by the IJN in Oct 1940 (officially Feb 1941) while on the slip and completed as carriers in 1942.

As for the CVEs, Taiyo was converted in 1941, entering service in Sept that year. Unyo began conversion in Nov 1941 and completed in May 1942. Chuyo was converted between July & Nov 1942, so had clearly been planned prior to Midway. Kaiyo's conversion was between Dec 1942 & Nov 1943. Shinyo was the odd ship out as she was the German liner Scharnhorst trapped in Japan on the outbreak of WW2 and acquired by the IJN in spring 1942 with initial plans for use as a transport but the changed to a CVE. She followed Chuyo in the yard and was converted between Sept 1942 & Nov 1943.

So only the last 2 of these conversions can be seen as a reaction to Midway (see below).

2. Construction of various naval auxiliaries from the early 1930s that could be converted to carriers in the event of war.
2 Submarine support ships. Zuiho converted before completion and completed as a carrier in 1940. Shoho converted Jan-Nov 1941
1 Submarine support ship. Ryuho converted to a carrier Dec 1941-Nov 1942.
1 Seaplane carrier / midget sub carrier. MIzuho lost before conversion could occur.
2 Seaplane / midget sub carriers. Chitose & Chiyoda were ordered to be converted to carriers in Sept 1942 with actual conversion occurring Jan-Dec 1943.

So again only the last pair can be seen as a reaction to Midway. Chiyoda's conversion is supposed to have influenced the reconstruction of Shinano which took place in the same yard.

Japanes post Midway planning began on 20/21 June 1942 with a conference on the Yamato.

The conversion of Mogami came about because the IJN realised after Operation C & Midway that they had inadequate reconnaissance assets. Recce was the responsibility of seaplanes carried on the cruisers and in particular the Tone & Chikuma. The perceived need was for a single additional ship. As Mogami needed extensive reconstruction and had had one of her aft turrets destroyed anyway, she was selected for rebuild to fill the gap. Her repair & conversion only took 8 months between Sept 1942 & April 1943.

When it came to the Ise & Hyuga, these were a reaction to Midway with plans initially drawn up in Aug 1942. Initially the proposal was for a full carrier conversion. A battleship/carrier with only the 2 forward turrets, was then proposed. But the constraints then laid down were for retention of at least 3 turrets and completion in 1943. But the intended airgroup for these ships was originally to have been D4Y Susisei dive bombers, only later changing to a mix of E-16A Zuiun recce floatplanes and D4Y. After launch the surviving D4Y would have landed on other carriers or ashore. The entire rebuild project took from Oct 1942 to Nov 1943.

As for Ibuki, Hans Lengerer published an article in Warship 2017 about the ship and I also have Lacroix's Japanese Cruiser book in the library. She was only laid down on 24 April 1942. Post Midway, the original plan would have seen both Ibuki & a sister ship cancelled and broken up on the slip (Warship 301 laid down 1 June 1942 and construction was stopped 30 June 1942 with carrier 5001 laid down in its place in Oct 1942). According to Lacroix, Ibuki was also cancelled on 30 June but work was ordered restarted and accelerated on 30 July to clear the slip to allow a carrier to be laid down. She was launched in May 1943 and work on her was abandoned in July according to Lacroix. Lengerer notes "At the time of her launch the hull structure was almost complete to the upper deck". So it seems highly unlikely that any machinery or gun turrets had been installed as indicated in the Japanese Wiki article, especially given that there was no plan for the hull at that stage.

The Japanese Naval General Staff in July 1942 considered her completion as a heavy cruiser as meaningless according to Lengerer, and her hull was, at that stage, not considered adequate for conversion as a carrier to take the next generation of IJN aircraft then in development. After that various conversion proposals were made including seaplane tender / fast transport and fleet tanker before conversion to a light fleet carrier once again came to the fore. It was therefore Aug 1943 before a decision for the light carrier conversion was made, Oct 1943 before those new carrier plans were completed and Nov before the incomplete hull was towed from Kure to Sasebo for completion. Estimated completion was March 1945 but by then she was only 80% complete when work stopped altogether.

Ibuki was essentially a modified Suzuya (sub-class of the Mogami class). Those ships took 42-46 months to build. And that under peacetime conditions. In July 1941 the Japanese included her in a so called "Urgent Programme" for ships intended to complete by 1 April 1944. But that plan was not activated until Sept 1941 and she was not ordered until Nov 1941 and she was finally laid down in May 1942. So to me it seems impossible that she could have been completed by Spring 1944 even in modified form, given that almost a year had slipped between her inclusion in an "urgent" programme and actually being laid down, especially once the effects of the war started to bite.

Shinano was reportedly 70% complete by June 1942 per Combined Fleet site. The decision to convert her to a carrier was taken in July 1942. I'm not sure how that then matches a subsequent statement on the same site.
"16 July 1942:
The projected specifications for No.110's conversion are laid out. It is to be completed as an armored aircraft carrier, closely modeled after No.130 TAIHO. At the time No.110 had had its turbines and nine of its twelve boilers installed. The floor of the magazines of No.1 and No.3 turrets had been completed, and the bulkheads had risen as high as the Middle Deck level."


Her rebuild started in early 1943 but initially proceeded slowly.

As a battleship carrier she would have been just as useless as the Ise & Hyuga conversions. Every nation looked at combined battleship / carriers at some stage or other and Japan was the only one that progressed the idea. And that only because of her extreme situation. While completing Shinano in the way that you propose might have been technically possible it would have been an even bigger waste of resources that what was done to her historically.
 
The much touted 'enclosed armoured hanger' actually resulted in all the RN's Fleet Carriers that suffered bomb damage or hanger fires needing to be written off due to structural damage. In each case, the hanger either fed the shock damage down into the hull doing such nice things as bending the keel, or acted as a blast furnace causing a minor hanger fire to turn into a raging conflagration that once again wrecked the hull - see HMS Indomitable and HMS Formidable both constructively wrecked after hanger fires.

The Malta Class abandoned not only the much over vaunted armoured flight deck, but used open hangers as per USN practice.

"More fighters would have been better protection than armour."
D K Brown
I don't know which carriers are being referred to here.

The five Illustrious class armoured carriers all survived the war and were refitted. Most went on until 1955 or so with Victorious (USS Robin)
being in service until 1968. Victorious actually played herself in the movie "Sink the Bismarck".

The armoured deck and box system allowed the carriers to survive bombs and kamikazes while serving in all theatres during the war. None
were scrapped due to structural damage from fires or bombs.

The experience gained showed the value of the armoured deck and the US Midway class got them.

The Malta class was never built anyway due to changing requirements so is not a good example.
 
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Thanks for your extensive post. To comment on a few things, first i would probably add Nisshin to the list of potential conversions, though as with Mizuho the diesels would have been probably replaced with DD turbines.

Secondly, i tend to put more faith in japanese wiki, usualy there is much better, extensive and accurate info on IJN warships, planes etc on it. There is also the issue of stuff lost in translation (probably quite literally) when it comes to information found in the western/european world. Regarding the Ibuki machinery, note that on Shinano at roughly the same stage in construction, most of the machinery has been installed, so if the japanese wiki and i think even the english one says that they had to pull out half the machinery from Ibuki once the CVL conversion began, it was probably there before July 1943.

Also in July 1942 the NGS might have found extra cruisers meaningless, but the cruiser brawls around Guadalcanal probably changed their mind, for a time at least, hence why some turrets might have been installed. But they vaccillated between cruiser, tanker, carrier etc. as seen for months, plus the lack of yard space hogged by the Hyugas delayed it as shown.

Regarding construction time, the Suzuyas were delayed by having to rectify their faults (which was really the case with all post-LNT pre-war cruisers) . Actually in wartime building speed was increased considerably, see for example how the Hiryu took 3 years, but the Unryus (practically the same design), took 2 years or less. Since Ibuki would be built to an already estabilished design (apart from the seaplane deck aft), i think it's reasonable to expect completion say about summer 1944.

The whole point of having Shinano and Ibuki completed is to have more IJN battleworthy warships actually able to contribute to the war effort. In OTL these two achieved exactly nothing as CV/CVLs, at least as BB-XCV and CA-XCV they could get to fire their guns in anger (six 46cm, 16 of 12,7cm and possibly 6 of 15,5cm plus 150 or so 25mm on Shinano , plus six 20cm and eight 12,7cm plus 50 or so 25mm on Ibuki) who knows what changes to the flow of events they might bring, especially the big Shinano and Mutsu (adding eight 41cm, 12 of 12,7cm, a dozen or more 14cm and 100 plus 25mm) if somehow it doesn't blow up. And actually, since this is an alternative post - Midway period, i wanted some other ships "living" for longer, such as Akagi, Hiryu, Mikuma (and Mogami not getting mangled), Hiei, maybe Kako, Kinugasa, maybe Agano etc.etc. Would have made things quite a lot "spicier" in an alternate 1944.
 
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Saddled by the same very slow pilot training and replacement scheme, and still facing seven Essexes and eight Independences. I don't think 120 more planes piloted by inexperienced pilots would have made that much a difference.
Well it could be, but you never know. If Hiryu lives then Yamaguchi lives too. Is he there instead of Ozawa? And with more carriers, would fliers like Egusa be retained to train and lead the carrier groups (OTL he was posted to the 1st Air Fleet, land-based, created because of IJN's weakness in carriers)? There's all kinds of possibilities.
 
In addition to four Japanese fleet carriers—Akagi, Kaga, Sōryū, and Hiryū, let's have the fleet carrier Zuikaku (no matter the state of her CAG), and the Zuihō and Jun'yō join Nagumo's main fleet. The good Admiral now has seven carriers.
How about we give the USN more carriers? USS Saratoga arrived at Pearl Harbor just as the Battle of Midway was closing. What if she arrives two weeks earlier?

Can USS Wasp be sent earlier from the Atlantic? Historically she arrived in the Pacific in July 1942 after being sent to replace losses from Coral Sea.
 
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I'll see your Zuikaku and raise you USS Saratoga and better command and control in TF-16 and a Hornet command/air group that knew what they were doing.

USN reports from June 1942 list her air group as

VB-3
VF-2
VS-3
VT-3
This is not correct for the Yorktown at Midway. Should be

VB-3
VB-5 (though referred to as VS-5 in the reports)
VF-3 (something like 60% of its pilots from Yorktown's VF-42)
VT-3

Care is required for the Aircraft location reports for 1942 as they are not necessarily correct; almost seems like the USN was hiding information from itself.
 
Was Wasp delivering Spitfires to Malta at the time?
If we look at USS Wasp (CV-7) - Wikipedia it appears Wasp's final Malta run was in early May 1942. After the Battle of Coral Sea reduced the USN by two (and then one) carrier, USS Wasp was sent to Norfolk Navy Yard to be readied for PacOps. Wasp departed VA on 6 June 1942, arriving in San Diego, CA for the run to Pearl on 19 June 1942.

If we want USS Wasp to enter the fight at Midway we must have her sail asap after USS Lexington is sunk at Coral Sea on 8 May 1942. Skipping the VA visit, Wasp should arrive at San Diego, CA two weeks later on May 22nd. Give three days for a quick replenishment, and sail for PH on May 25th. At 20 knots it's 4.5 days from San Diego to Honolulu, with USS Wasp arriving at PH in time to sail with USS Yorktown and TF17 on May 31st.

It's tight, but if Wasp sails asap after Coral Sea and skips the VA stopover she can make it to Pearl Harbour in time to join the Battle of Midway. Of course skipping the VA refit may expose Wasp to performance and capability issues, but if USS Yorktown can sail from Pearl in an essentially wrecked state, Wasp can make do.

Adding Wasp and Saratoga to Hornet, Enterprise and Yorktown will be a significant force multiplier. Though I wonder if Admiral Nimitz would allow USS Yorktown to sit out this battle for proper repairs, and perhaps a return Stateside for in-depth reconstruction?
 
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Saratoga can't arrive 2 weeks earlier at PH.

Until 22 May she was at Puget Sound being repaired and refitted after being torpedoed in Jan 1942. She then had to go to San Diego to pick up her air group and a short work up and then loaded some replacement aircraft for the other carriers. She left for Hawaii on 1 June 1942 and arrived 6 June.
 
After launching the Spifires for Malta in Operation Bowery on 9 May, she had to return to Britain to collect most of her air group offloaded to Hatston to make room for the Spitfires.

So the route to the Panama Canal passes Norfolk anyway.

Second problem, her dive and torpedo bombers. She was equipped with Vindicators and Devastators until arriving back in the US after Bowery. They then converted to the SBD and TBF. But she didn't sail from Norfolk with a full complement.

At Norfolk 18 of her 24 0.5in were replaced with 32 x 20mm to augment the 4 Quad 1.1in.

Left Norfolk with a better AA armament fitted on 6 June and transitted the Canal on 10 June. Arrived San Diego 19 June where she picked up the rest of her air group (10 TBF & 12 SBD). Then required to undertake carrier qualifications of new aircrews 22/23 June before sailing as convoy escort to Tonga 1 July.

So to have her miss, or only carry out a fuelling stop at Norfolk there has to be a sacrifice. No AA update? Sails with an obsolete air group?
 
Also aiui Wasp had persistent problems with the turbines. Is it even phisically possible for Wasp to reach Midway in time? When did it arrived and left Hatston? I saw a picture saying Wasp arrived Norfolk May 26? If no or very short stop at Norfolk then about May 30 Canal, June 6-7 or so San Diego, then perhaps June 8-9 Pearl and June 11-12 Midway? With SB2Us and TBDs?

I have seen various scenarios in which Saratoga MIGHT make it to Midway with a very cobbled together airgroup, but there's a big if here as well whether VF-5 or 72 is ready to sail by the June 1st at the very latest. VT-8s TBFs are, and whatever SBDs and F4F plus pilots MIGHT already on the ship if it leaves San Diego straight away on May 25 or so, i think 23 SBD and 14 F4F, need to read again which squadrons.

But Zuikaku and Saratoga being at Midway really have no link to eachother, they're different scenarios, could be both, could be one or the other as one fancies.
 
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As to Hornet, well Nimitz's master plan told them the japanese were in 2 groups one behind the other at 50-100 miles, Mitscher followed it hence sending Ring to the north on 265. So start with Nimitz, or replace Mitscher and/or the anyway incompetent/unliked Ring. Otherwise the only chance is Johnson's 17 SBDs flying a bit more SE in his run after breaking from Ring, MAYBE he could spot Nagumo.
 
Saratoga can't arrive 2 weeks earlier at PH. Until 22 May she was at Puget Sound being repaired and refitted after being torpedoed in Jan 1942. She then had to go to San Diego to pick up her air group and a short work up and then loaded some replacement aircraft for the other carriers. She left for Hawaii on 1 June 1942 and arrived 6 June.
I don't think it's a stretch to have Saratoga complete her repairs/restock and arrive some days early in time to sail with TF17 on 31 May 1942.
 

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