Midway with expanded Kido Butai?

[Shortround6]

I was trying to keep it simple.

Getting rid of unwanted water is whole new subject.
In apartment buildings crews have been known to cut holes in floors to relieve weight of water to help avoid collapse. (a crap load of work)
Knocking a toilet off it's base/mount can open a 3 in hole very quickly and several such holes can move water quickly and not just transfer it down one floor.

 

[SaparotRob]

Pretty sure the assisting ships aimed at the holes left by the ordnance which caused the fires.

Yeah, like you know anything about fire fighting.


HAH! I'm already outside with hat and coat.

 

[EwenS]

Pretty sure the assisting ships aimed at the holes left by the ordnance which caused the fires.

As was pointed out in the Combined Fleet thread I posted, carrier construction plays a part. British & Japanese ships had closed hangars as did the Lexington class. That means that in the event of a hangar fire there are compartments between the hangar wall and the ship's side. So unless you get sufficiently large explosions to take out the flight deck or knock holes through two bulkheads to open the ship's side you have no way of directing water from a ship alongside into the heart of the fire.

US carriers, except the Lexingtons, had open hangars (hangar runs right out to the ship's side) with plenty of openings along the sides allowing other ships to pull alongside and direct hoses into the heart of the blaze.

A bomb going through the flight deck and exploding in the hangar doesn't necessarily leave a big hole in the flight deck. See Illustrious armoured deck damage. This was Enterprise in 1942

Bomb damage on flight deck of USS Enterprise (CV-6) on 24 August 1942 Stock Photo - Alamy

Download this stock image: Bomb damage on flight deck of USS Enterprise (CV-6) on 24 August 1942. - PPMTJE from Alamy's library of millions of high resolution stock photos, illustrations and vectors.

www.alamy.com

This is the IJN Katsuragi in July 1945 after having a 2,000lb HE bomb explode in the upper hangar. While the hole looks big it only represents the flight deck being heaved upwards by the force of the explosion with a relatively small part folded over. With no airgroup or fuel aboard she escaped much fire damage.

80-G-349907a: Japanese aircraft carrier Katsuragi, 1945

Japanese aircraft carrier Katsuragi, 1945. Damaged Japanese ships in Kure Harbor, Japan. Photographed by aircraft from USS St. George (AV 16), October 14, 1945. Official U.S. Navy Photograph, now in the collections of the National Archives. (2014/06/19).

www.history.navy.mil

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

The next question is where is the smoke coming out. If you put the water in the hole where the smoke is coming out you block the smoke and the smoke (and heat) have to get out somewhere else, even if it is several hundred feet away.

That can perhaps smother the fire, or at least tamp it down enough to advance a wet line to it. Or -- if nothing else -- you're cooling the ship, which helps the firefighting efforts indirectly. And I don't think the water is going to stop up the hole, though a fog pattern pattern will slow down the smoke exiting and perhaps suck some back into the compartment.

The only time we trained on hitting the outside of a building was not on the burner itself, but on the exposures to either side to keep them below ignition temp. That obviously doesn't apply in naval fires at sea.

And yeah, when you're trying to save a scarce and expensive carrier and crew, you're gonna pull out all the stops.

 

[mack8]

Recent discussion here involving Anthony Tully of "Shattered Sword" fame about japanese damage control and the use of other ships with particular reference to Midway. Note carrier design (hangar type) plays its part in determining if this is even possible.

IJN Damage Control - Tully's Port

That's a very interesting discussion, Eugen Pinak is the man when it come to IJN, particuarily Kido Butai stuff.

If i may add, one can also look at the number of dead on each IJN CV to see how badly each was damaged, Kaga and Soryu clearly parallel what happened on Franklin, vast majority of the deaths probably happened in the first few minutes when everything was exploding.

On Akagi it took longer for the fires/explosions to spread, so she had far fewer casulties (and incidentally, many more hands to fight the fires), and at least to me, there is also the element of incredible luck on the US side, not only Best's bomb hit, but also that second bomb just crippled her steering at a critical time, if Best's bomb had a 10% chance of hitting, this second one must have had a 1% chance to do the damage it did! If that bomb actually hit the rear fight deck corner as older histories claim, probably Akagi could still steer and would have remained underway and under power for several hours more.

Hiryu indeed remined underway for hours after the hits. Incidentally, regarding water drainage i think Tully's book says she was listing at some point due to the water accumulating in the ship from it's own and DD's fire fighting efforts.

To me, while the situation on Kaga and Soryu appeared hopeless due to the huge fires and massive top damage, hence their scuttling, it was a rushed and premature to scuttle Akagi and Hiryu, at least one or the other could have been temporarily taken in tow during the night until the fires would have died down and crews reboarded to try to get power on (and in Akagi's case to try to get some steering). As i understand Hiryu was hardly burning in the morning. Of course, this could have exposed one or both to Spruance, true, but who knows what would have happened.

I supposed the human factor played it's part in that i would think no one (i mostly refer to the top brass who made the calls) at Midway (IJN side at least) has seen CVs burning and exploding like that, it must have looked overwhelming and beyond hope for the first two, and probably all that combined to a long day's worth of stress and exhaustion, they saw things worse than they were when it came to Akagi and Hiryu.

 

[33k in the air]

. . . it was a rushed and premature to scuttle Akagi and Hiryu, at least one or the other could have been temporarily taken in tow during the night until the fires would have died down and crews reboarded to try to get power on (and in Akagi's case to try to get some steering). As i understand Hiryu was hardly burning in the morning.

Given the photos which exist of Hiryu (here and here) which show the forward part of the ship blown open and essentially melted, it doesn't seem like there's much left to save. Getting it back to a fighting condition seems like it would take a long time in a shipyard being rebuilt.

 

[EwenS]

There were always other considerations in play. The final paragraph in the Princeton Damage Report summed up the decision to sink her which notes the kind of other considerations in that case.

"11. Even after the explosion of the bombs in the torpedo stowage, the ship was apparently still seaworthy but damage received by the escorting ships and the tactical situation precluded further salvage efforts."

 

[mack8]

Given the photos which exist of Hiryu (here and here) which show the forward part of the ship blown open and essentially melted, it doesn't seem like there's much left to save. Getting it back to a fighting condition seems like it would take a long time in a shipyard being rebuilt.

That may be the case, but if possible better to get Hiryu in a shipyard and repair it in 6 months or a year or whatever it will take, rathen than scuttling it. Besides that may look worse than it is (huge craters in a flight deck might look ghastly, but relatively easy to repair), more important is the condition of the hull below. How many ships of relatively similar size like a CA had their bows completely wrecked or even blown away but survived and were repaired? I can think of some USN CAs or even Mogami.

 

[33k in the air]

That may be the case, but if possible better to get Hiryu in a shipyard and repair it in 6 months or a year or whatever it will take, rathen than scuttling it.

The question becomes one of economical repair. Would the long effort and resources spent on getting the ship back into service be better spent on new construction?

 

[SaparotRob]

A ship that has had as much prolonged fire damage as Hiryu, would have suffered metal fatigue along with shock damage. The same would be true for Kaga and Akagi. Kido Butai is now in a bad place to be without air over. Maybe fuel getting a little low too.
I am not a naval architect.

 

[EwenS]

The question becomes one of economical repair. Would the long effort and resources spent on getting the ship back into service be better spent on new construction?

And that is something that changed for different navies at different times of the war.

For Britain, by way of example, the destroyer Javelin had both bow and stern blown off in 1940 reducing her length by half. Eskimo lost everything forward of the bridge in 1940 but was rebuilt. By 1942 when the Porcupine was torpedoed and broke in two she wasn't repaired.

IIRC there was a Japanese destroyer that was also rebuilt like that.

 

[33k in the air]

A ship that has had as much prolonged fire damage as Hiryu, would have suffered metal fatigue along with shock damage. The same would be true for Kaga and Akagi. Kido Butai is now in a bad place to be without air over. Maybe fuel getting a little low too.

And some 2,200 nautical miles from home.

 

[SaparotRob]

And some 2,200 nautical miles from home.

Towing what is essentially a steel canoe full of scrap metal.

 

[mack8]

A ship that has had as much prolonged fire damage as Hiryu, would have suffered metal fatigue along with shock damage. The same would be true for Kaga and Akagi. Kido Butai is now in a bad place to be without air over. Maybe fuel getting a little low too.
I am not a naval architect.

It may not quite be apples to apples, but they rebuilt Franklin which probably was more burned out than Hiryu was, maybe even Akagi. How long did it took to repair Franklin?

 

[SaparotRob]

I don't think Franklin was rebuilt, refitted, whatever because there were about 782 more Essex's on the ways, more or less. Franklin was able to leave the scene under her own power. That got her out of range of enemy air power. Franklin wouldn't be threatened by enemy surface combatants. You can't compare the 1942 IJN's salvage capabilities with the '44 USN's damage control.
This is all from memory since looking it up is cheating.

 

[Shortround6]

This is all from memory since looking it up is cheating.

I have been cheating for over 10 years

 

[mack8]

Franklin was repaired, it's just the war ended by the time repairs were finished (but i haven't seen info as to actually how long the repairs took), and went straight into reserve.

PS: I have found the info that frankly i was looking for years, Franklin's repairs were completed in June 1946, so it took a year.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

As was pointed out in the Combined Fleet thread I posted, carrier construction plays a part. British & Japanese ships had closed hangars as did the Lexington class. That means that in the event of a hangar fire there are compartments between the hangar wall and the ship's side. So unless you get sufficiently large explosions to take out the flight deck or knock holes through two bulkheads to open the ship's side you have no way of directing water from a ship alongside into the heart of the fire.

US carriers, except the Lexingtons, had open hangars (hangar runs right out to the ship's side) with plenty of openings along the sides allowing other ships to pull alongside and direct hoses into the heart of the blaze.

This is probably why Japanese destroyers did not play water over the burning carriers at Midway. My quip was just that, but in other circumstances (open hangars, or large holes in the flight deck) helper ships hove-to to play monitor streams upon stricken ships, for reasons I noted above.

I've already noted how enclosed hangars can hamper this sort of help, as well as exacerbate other fire-fighting issues, so won't repeat my points on those.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

[...] it was a rushed and premature to scuttle Akagi and Hiryu, at least one or the other could have been temporarily taken in tow during the night until the fires would have died down and crews reboarded to try to get power on (and in Akagi's case to try to get some steering).

And meanwhile the next day or two TF16 is actively searching for stragglers. Granted, no more torpedo bombers left, and dive-bombers probably ain't sinking any Kongo-class without help, but they also have to consider subs (the Japanese weren't aware of Mk 14 issues at that time).

There's also fueling to consider.

They made the right decision to cut losses and go home.

 

[SaparotRob]

Franklin was repaired, it's just the war ended by the time repairs were finished (but i haven't seen info as to actually how long the repairs took), and went straight into reserve.

PS: I have found the info that frankly i was looking for years, Franklin's repairs were completed in June 1946, so it took a year.

Of course she was repaired enough to make back to NY. What I should've wrote was rebuilt/refitted. The USN really didn't need her at that point. I think the Navy just wasn't going to allow the other side a kill. The IJN didn't have that luxury.