MiG-21 - still unpleasant surprise at Cope India exercise

Discussion in 'Modern' started by michael82, Dec 25, 2012.

  1. michael82

    michael82 New Member

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    Draft copy of the exercise Cope India report says:
    While the superb performances of IAF Sukhoi-30s were somewhat anticipated, the performance of MiG-21Bison came as a major “unpleasant surprise” to the USAF officials. It also validates the claim of the Russian officials that they are capable of successfully converting “second generation” late-model MiG-21bis fighters to “fourth generation combat platforms”. Inherently the significant positive attributes enjoyed by MiG-21s were their dog fighting ability in WVR (Within Visual Range) combat. Even the earlier models had a low corner velocity of 556 kilometers per hour and at Mach 0.5 had an instantaneous turn rate of 11.1 degrees per second. The MiG-21Bison with more powerful R-25 engines not only considerably bettered this performance but it may also be credited with “jackrabbit” acceleration, a very critical attribute in WVR combat.

    Something in-line to:
    Fighter Performance In Practice: F-4 Phantom versus MiG-21: How to do split-S in MiG-21 within 3000 ft and Unexploited low speed maneuverability: 9788660210175: Amazon.com: Books

    Among many fourth generations attributes added to the IAF MiG-21Bison design, the incorporation of HMS (Helmet Mounted Sight) and high-off-boresight R-73RDM2 NBVR/WVR (Near Beyond Visual Range/Within Visual Range) AAMs (Air-to-Air Missiles) have turned it into a “Great Equalizer” in the WVR combat scenario. Conceptually a small number of MiG-21Bisons maintaining “radar silence” can be guided towards their aerial target by a couple of Sukhoi-30s by secure data links in accordance with MFFC (Mixed Fighter Force Concept). Upon entering into an WVR combat envelope the MiG-21Bisons armed with HMS and deadly NBVR/WVR missiles had the capability of destroying even fifth-generation fighters alike F/A-22 Raptor as assessed by high-profile Fighter Analyst Ben Lambeth of RAND Corporation. According to Lambeth “in visual combat everybody dies at the same rate.” F/A-22 also has to slow down if forced into a WVR combat scenario and loses the advantage of its super-cruise attributes. The situation further complicates if the IAF Sukhoi-30s have acquired the capability of providing target illumination for RVV-AE (AA-12 Adder) BVR missiles being launched from IAF MiG-21Bisons at extended ranges.
     
  2. Lucky13

    Lucky13 Forum Mascot

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    Interesting!
    Now, How many MiG-21Bison do you get for a F/A-22?
     
  3. michaelmaltby

    michaelmaltby Well-Known Member

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    I'm guessing way more than a dozen, Lucky

    MM
     
  4. syscom3

    syscom3 Pacific Historian

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    Too bad we don't have some low cost dogfighter UAV's that would fly around and engage the "enemy" formations in order to force them to start maneuvering and dispersing. The F22's could start picking them off one at a time at long range.

    Sort of like using dogs to flush the game birds from a field.
     
  5. michaelmaltby

    michaelmaltby Well-Known Member

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    I agree .... mechanical rabbits at the 'dog track' .....

    The latest Israeli strike with F-15i's and GulfStream "suppression" into Sudan makes me think that stealth isn't an absolute prerequisite ...

    If you can sufficiently manipulate - distort - the enemy's "big picture" then you can go in with anything robust and capable.


    Canada seems bent on bugging out of the F-35 - politics - but super F-18's could certainly have done what the Israeli F-15's did ... MoL.

    MM
     
  6. Jack_Hill

    Jack_Hill Member

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    Ty you for sharing !
    So the old viper looking bird is still alive and biting !
     
  7. michaelmaltby

    michaelmaltby Well-Known Member

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    #7 michaelmaltby, Dec 26, 2012
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2012
    "... Too bad we don't have some low cost dogfighter UAV's that would fly around and engage the "enemy" formations in order to force them to start maneuvering and dispersing."

    Sys .... it might be fun to develop a "spec list" for such a bird - and a Mig-21 (low cost, sturdy, disposable) is a good starting point.

    It has to be able to "loiter" off station for long periods and then go like hell at the enemy when required.

    I kinda like this as starting point for an unmanned fighter drone.

    MM
     

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  8. FLYBOYJ

    FLYBOYJ "THE GREAT GAZOO"
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    Interesting info folks - a few things to thing about though...

    The IAF has done a great job in updating older soviet equipment to the point where in certain scenarios it can be competitive with US and other western equipment, note I say "certain." To paint a picture across the board based on going into battle in a WVR scenario is far reaching. There would have to be some extraordinary circumstances for an F-22 driver to even engage any combatant in anything but BVR, but you do have to train for all scenarios. Some of the Cope Thunder exercises have had some US military planners thinking as the IAF upgraded equipment as narrowed down the playing field and kill ratio against some US equipment. I think some of the last exercises showed that F-15s couldn't not maintain a 6 to 1 kill ratio in some of these VR/ WVR exercises, I think now they are looking at 3 to 1 (correct me if I'm wrong).
     
  9. Matt308

    Matt308 Glock Perfection
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    And if F-22s enter the merge, then USAF is doing it wrong or has mismanaged the engagement. That is supposed to be the last ditch option. F-22s manage the battlespace with less stealthy platforms providing the weaponry BVR. When things go awry only then does the Raptor swoop down from FL600+ and engage.

    When we think about modern engagement scenarios, we MUST understand that airplane kinematics are not the primary ingoing strength. Management and manipulation of the airspace environment to remove (or surreptiously modify) command, control, communication and intelligence is a force multiplier of epic proportions. As noted above... just ask the Isreali's.
     
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