MiG 'frontline jet' fighters remain 'cheap and cheerful'?

tomo pauk · Apr 13, 2020

FWIW:
manuals for MiG and a lot of other aircraft: link
SAC and other data sheets for US aircraft & missiles (no F-16): link
NATOPS manuals: link

The Basket · Apr 13, 2020

TsAGI may have dictated the optimum aerodynamics of the jet.

Maybe the single engined reliability of the earlier MIGs was worse than twins.

Maybe the Fulcrum was a scaled down Flanker.

The Fulcrum was more Phantom that Falcon so an EE Lighting pilot would have considered the cockpit cutting edge!

The Soviets were years behind. So no big deal if the cockpit looked like a Victorian Steam engine. As long as the R-73 goes bang when it should.

MIflyer · Apr 13, 2020

A friend of mine who worked for the Smithsonian ASM went to Poland on business circa 1992. He said they showed him an airfield covered with Migs and told him, "Any one you want for $5000 American."

tomo pauk · Apr 16, 2020

I've sifted through the different manuals and data sheets and come out with this table. Yes, the 15000 kg worth of internal fuel for the MiG-25 is amazing. Fuel available for MiG-29A vs. thrust available is really pathetic. Note that Lighting used the vertral fuel more like a permanently attached feature and later gained over-wing racks where the drop tanks could've been installed. The MiG-23ML was able to carry two drop tanks under the movable wing section without reduction of warload. MiG-21BIS could've carried another 2x440L drop tanks under wing, reducing the AA missile number; similar for Jaguar (yes, not much of a fighter) and Mirages. F-16 and F-18 could and did carried & still carry two undr-wing tanks while still carrying a good load of AA missiles. MiG-29A was modified for extra underwing drop tanks, again reducing the missiles capacity.
I've went for the Cold war versions.

nuuumannn · Apr 20, 2020

MIflyer said:
A friend of mine who worked for the Smithsonian ASM went to Poland on business circa 1992. He said they showed him an airfield covered with Migs and told him, "Any one you want for $5000 American."

When I was travelling through Russia way back when, we stopped outside Moscow University for a veiw over the city and there were all these guys who had set up markets - these were popping up all over the place as a means of making a quick rouble - and they were selling the usual ushankas and Soviet memorabilia, but one had an AK-47 on his table and he offered me to buy it, to which I mumbled about getting it through customs. I said to him, "Could you get hold of a MiG-15?" as a joke, then he said, "yes, I know someone..." I'm not sure if he was serious or not...

nuuumannn · Apr 20, 2020

For a relatively affordable fighter in this day and age, that is, if you want something modern and a totally new design, the JF-17 Thunder is affordable and packs quite a wallop. At $25 million a piece, it is the most affordable 'new' fighter out there, unless you want something upgraded.

Thunder and Thunderbolt

JF-17 on display at the Paris Airshow last year. The problem is that it was designed jointly by China and Pakistan; the firm Chengdu used the J7, licence built MiG-21 as a staring point and significantly refined it, employing Grumman to help along the way with electronics, but Tiannanmen Square happened and Chengdu had to seek alternative partners. Unfortunately for the Pakistanis, the PLAAF has not put the type into service, which means Pakistan carries the the cost of manufacturing it alone. Uniquely, the JF-17 is built in a state owned factory funded by the Pakistan Air Force, the only modern fighter built by its primary operator. Only one country outside of Pakistan operates the JF-17, that's Burma, with Nigeria as a possible buyer, despite the vigorous sales pitch at Paris.

Thunder climb

MIflyer · Apr 20, 2020

When the Russian forces in Eastern Europe were more or less left to their on devices to survive, they started hauling out the older equipment they had in storage and selling it in order to be able to buy food. That included Mig-15's and Mig-17's. They were unable to return to Russia for a few years because there was no place for them to live there. The Germans told them they would come to Russia and build apartments so they could get the Russian troops out of their country. There was a Russian military school in Ukraine that had a couple of L-29's that needed some repairs before they could fly and agreed to trade them for food. Someone later figured out that those jets were picked up for something like $27 worth of food.

At Tico Airport the Valiant Air Command Museum has a Mig-17PF that was purchased by a group of American college kids, who eventually figured out they would never be able to get it into the air and gave it to the museum.

nuuumannn · Apr 20, 2020

MIflyer said:
When the Russian forces in Eastern Europe were more or less left to their on devices to survive, they started hauling out the older equipment they had in storage and selling it in order to be able to buy food. That included Mig-15's and Mig-17's. They were unable to return to Russia for a few years because there was no place for them to live there. The Germans told them they would come to Russia and build apartments so they could get the Russian troops out of their country. There was a Russian military school in Ukraine that had a couple of L-29's that needed some repairs before they could fly and agreed to trade them for food. Someone later figured out that those jets were picked up for something like $27 worth of food.

At Tico Airport the Valiant Air Command Museum has a Mig-17PF that was purchased by a group of American college kids, who eventually figured out they would never be able to get it into the air and gave it to the museum.

Yeah, it was a common thing. Under a work programme I went to the MLP in Cracow Muzeum Lotnictwa Polskiego w Krakowie many years ago and the guy showing me round showed me the stock in store for trading purposes. By trading old MiGs the museum had managed to get a Viggen, a Draken and various other bits and pieces. Mind you, it worked both ways. In the 1970s, the museum received a Spitfire on the back of an RAF low loader in exchange for the last surviving DH.9A. A lot of diplomacy went ahead to allow an RAF truck to drive through what was communist East Germany with a Spitfire on its trailer into Poland and return.

0407 RAFM D.H.9A

FLYBOYJ · Apr 20, 2020

nuuumannn said:
When I was travelling through Russia way back when, we stopped outside Moscow University for a veiw over the city and there were all these guys who had set up markets - these were popping up all over the place as a means of making a quick rouble - and they were selling the usual ushankas and Soviet memorabilia, but one had an AK-47 on his table and he offered me to buy it, to which I mumbled about getting it through customs. I said to him, "Could you get hold of a MiG-15?" as a joke, then he said, "yes, I know someone..." I'm not sure if he was serious or not...

MiGs, L29s, L39s Iskras, and Soko G-2 Galebs and be easily had if you find one in good condition and get a broker to arrange the sale.

This was was built in the Czech Republic but was purchased via Poland. I helped on the restoration. Got to fly in this a few times.

FLYBOYJ · Apr 20, 2020

I think I posted this a long time ago. Post condition inspection run up.

nuuumannn · Apr 20, 2020

I remember when the second hand aircraft market became flooded with MiG airframes in various states of useability. I worked for one of the first museums in the UK to receive a MiG, although by the early 90s, several had passed through the UK for evaluation purposes.

MIflyer · Apr 20, 2020

There was a guy at Santa Barbara Airport in the mid-80's that had an F-86 and got a Polish Mig-15. I stopped by one Saturday to see if I could take pictures of it. I found it sitting alone, the canopy open and some access panels open. A guy there said they had filled it with fuel to try to start it and had the fuel pouring out all over the place. They hosed it off and went to lunch. I took a bunch of pictures - and for weeks thereafter my tennis shoes smelled like kerosene.

MiG 'frontline jet' fighters remain 'cheap and cheerful'?

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