Most ignored combat aircraft of ww2

[Skyediamonds]

Amazing. I'm hearing & learning of aircraft I never knew existed. What's the amazing part, is there are so many!

 

[GrauGeist]

Here's something fun to look up, the Interstate TDR.
The TDR was a television-controlled twin-engined drone of the USN. It could actually be piloted by a human and when it was ready to be deployed, the cockpit was faired over and a war-load of a torpedo or up to 2,000 pounds of bombs would loaded aboard.
A control operator situated in a TBF would guide the TDR to it's target.

There was also the Culver TD4C, PQ-8 and PQ-14, which were radio-controlled target drones that could be flown by humans, too.

 

[DaveB.inVa]

I have a love of the Brewster F2A Buffalo and the Finnish B-239 versions, definitely a unique aircraft.

The Ju-86 is something that doesn't get much recognition, it was a workhorse but was surpassed by the He-111. My favorite is the Ju-86P and R versions. They had pressurized cabins and used Jumo 205 2 stroke diesels. They were photo recon versions with ceilings over 50000'. I have a book on just those variants.

 

[taly01]

The Ju-86 is something that doesn't get much recognition

Great pick the Ju86 are ignored, i think I only found it looking for high altitude turbo planes, but very good at what it was meant to do as well as been technically cool, unfortunately it looks like an mangy turkey vulture

 

[Dimlee]

Speaking about recon department... FW 189 comes to mind.
Search "focke wulf 189" on Amazon brings just 6 books. Not fair, IMHO.

 

[pinehilljoe]

I would vote for the PBM, the Catalina seems to get the fame for sea planes in the US. 1300 PBMs were built. Though it did get fame as part of the Flight 19 story.

I wouldn't call the SBD ignored, any photo or art work of the Battle of Midway has the SBD in it. But your right, since it was phased out before the end of the War, it gets less of the liimelight.

 

[michael rauls]

I would vote for the PBM, the Catalina seems to get the fame for sea planes in the US. 1300 PBMs were built. Though it did get fame as part of the Flight 19 story.

I wouldn't call the SBD ignored, any photo or art work of the Battle of Midway has the SBD in it. But your right, since it was phased out before the end of the War, it gets less of the liimelight.

The PBM is a very good pick.
When I started the thread I was thinking in terms of most ignored realative to its contribution( hence my pick of the SBD).
but that would have made for an awfully long title and been more limiting in scope.
The SBD wasn't retired before the end of the war. It was still being used by the Marines in the Pacific and in its land based version, the A -24 Banshee in Europe by the Free French air force until the end of the war.

 

[GrauGeist]

Another little known fact about the SBD, it saw action against Axis shipping and targets during the Allied landings in North Africa and then from there, was operating against German shipping near Norway.
These were SBDs from the USS Ranger (CV-4).

 

[Greg Boeser]

And in it's Army livery (A-24), it was active from the Aleutians to Australia.

 

[michael rauls]

Another little known fact about the SBD, it saw action against Axis shipping and targets during the Allied landings in North Africa and then from there, was operating against German shipping near Norway.
These were SBDs from the USS Ranger (CV-4).

I was un aware of the SBD use around Norway. You don't happen to know the timeframe of that do you?

 

[GrauGeist]

I was un aware of the SBD use around Norway. You don't happen to know the timeframe of that do you?

During Operation Leader in October 1943.

The Ranger spent most of her service in the Atlantic and MTO, so her compliment of F4Fs, SBDs and TBFs saw extensive operations against German, Italian and Vichy French targets.

 

[pinehilljoe]

The PBM is a very good pick.
When I started the thread I was thinking in terms of most ignored realative to its contribution( hence my pick of the SBD).
but that would have made for an awfully long title and been more limiting in scope.
The SBD wasn't retired before the end of the war. It was still being used by the Marines in the Pacific and in its land based version, the A -24 Banshee in Europe by the Free French air force until the end of the war.

Yes, agreed about use of the SBD, I was referring to first line in the air wings of the big fleet carriers. By the end of the War, the SB2C had replaced the SBD on the Fleet Carriers.

 

[SPYINTHESKY]

I agree. Martin built 1575 Baltimores, and the vast majority of them saw combat service. Like some other planes (such as the Hawker Typhoon), this plane is easy to forget about because none currently survive.

There is a Hawker Typhoon in the RAF Museum London and a beautiful beast it is too. I certainly don't think the Typhoon is ignored by the way, indeed was, and still is a very popular Airfix kit I remember from my childhood. Strangely enough I was reading up about it prior to coming on this forum this morning as its a profile I really need to add to its other Hawker sisters from Tornado to Sea Fury its the only one remaining to be done in my portfolio.

(Re reading not sure that you were necessarily including the Tiffy in 'not existing' category.)

Edit: Ironically I was led here indirectly by my getting an update on the Typhoon Restoration project (Hawker Typhoon RB396 » Restoration) and went back to its news section later. Funny enough I learned, within some big news they relate there, that though I stated that I didn't think it to be an ignored aircraft the creators of the project do believe that it is, especially now that the 'Typhoon' name is nearly always identified with the modern fighter that took its name.

 

[SPYINTHESKY]

About Eric Brown, I did actually participate in a long interview with him some years back (alongside an experienced pilot on the type) regarding the Whirlwind fighter as we were trying to create a documentary about it specifically to raise its profile and led by someone who's father was the first Squadron Leader of the type. I guess that aircraft qualifies here too by the way.

Anyway it was very interesting to compare his view of the type with that of an active pilot on the aircraft. The pilot loved it as did nearly all his compatriots it seems however Eric Brown was totally dismissive of it which perhaps gives perspective on the attitudes between combat pilots and test pilots. He was certainly very opinionated and very good at putting his point across with impact shall we say. It made you both impressed by his self belief and very (even in his then late 80s) clear sharp mind and memory on such matters, that to be as successful as he was in his profession was I suspect a necessity. It would also on the other side of the coin probably create in himself strong views that might not necessarily be entirely fair (and certainly not nuanced) in all cases because perhaps the bigger/wider picture wasn't as important as the immediate and clear assessment. In the case of the Whirlwind he didn't fly it (I understand) till rather late in its cycle and as an aircraft that was never updated in its 4 year lifespan was probably for example too dismissive because by that time it was competing with aircraft that had gone through endless development, but then that was not his problem he would claim. Don't know if that is insightful or not in regards to the man but no one would survive in his capacity without strong opinions that gave answers in the immediate circumstances, especially within a wartime scenario, when instant answers were required for good or bad at times and he was the go to man for that.

 

[Jager52]

I am submitting the Hawker Hurricane, over shadowed by the Spitfire. And the P39 for the Eastern front.

 

[Schweik]

Eric Brown also flew a variety of "missions" a lot of which had very little to do with max turning rates or max roll rates or other extreme, exploring the edges of the envelope flying.

He did a lot of work figuring out which planes could be landed on carrier decks (or not landed on them). for a number of weeks at the end of the war he was ferrying a variety of German Aircraft back to England (or at least to British controlled zones in Germany) which often meant flying a plane that had been repaired/serviced by German mechanics using whatever parts they could scrounge up at the field they were at. Getting a strange plane into the air and back down with very little briefing and not breaking it (and himself) in the process took precedence over wringing the last G or two out it's turning circle. Some of the se planes he flew only once or twice (test hop if he was lucky and then the ferry flight to turn the plane over to the people examining it) .

He may have also flown some planes 2-4 years apart and with dozens (if not hundreds ) planes inbetween it is quite possible that his perceptions/standards had changed.

Yeah but that is from an experienced and very tough wartime pilot and combat veteran no less, with considerably more flight time in those aircraft than anyone posting in this group...

 

[Schweik]

Reminds me another great and well known in USSR/post USSR test pilot Mark Gallay. 124 aircraft, participator of early space program. Over a dozen of books.
He was shortly in combat in 1941 and claimed Do-215 in one of night interceptions.
Reading his books (well written, by the way) I was quite often surprised by his evaluations of combat machines. His opinion about P-47 was summarised as "Good airplane but not a fighter".

Could you summarize some of his other evaluations? P-39? P-40? Spit? Yak series? Lavochkin series?

 

[Schweik]

I agree with some already mentioned, so some of these are repeats. A few of my favorites (under the criteria that they are not very well known at least to non-enthusiasts, but were good designs and had at least some useful military service)

Fighters
IAR-80 what a beautiful plane and apparently, pretty effective against P-38s and maybe B-24s. The story of it's design history coming out of the PZL P-.24 is fairly amazing to me. Romania had legit design chops. Also as far as I know the only successful fighter of Slavic design that wasn't Russian.
Yak-7 a trainer that worked so well it was made into a fighter, and one of the really important fighters at that for a while for the VVS
Early Mustangs, Mk I and II - playing a fairly substantial role as one of the few fighters flying out of England in the early days that could perform (relatively) deep daytime intrusion missions and live to tell about it.
Dewoitine D.520- I was susprised to learn how much these were still being used by the Italians for air defense of Italy.
Re-2001 and 2005 all the Regianne fighters really, and the other 5 series (G. 55 and MC 205) don't get enough credit IMO.

Bombers
People already covered the SBD and A-24 but let me just add praise to that.
The A-36 was a (to me) surprisingly important and significant dive bomber. I really had no idea until I bought a book on Allison-Engined Mustangs.
Ju 88 - seems to have been quite dangerous in a maritime role that I think gets overshadowed by not being all that great over England
SM. 79 - three engined terror of the Royal Navy in the Med, and it started as an airliner
A-26 it played a bigger role in the war than people seem to realize.

Recon
It's not exactly unknown but it could deserve a bit more renown - the sleek and fast Ki-46

Utility / Maritime patrol
Lysander - playing a combat role in North Africa among other interesting things
Hudson / Harpoon / Ventura already mentioned but they show up a lot in the histories playing a vital role in guiding other combat aircraft to their targets, or from base to base. So many planes were lost to navigation problems. After reading Christopher Shores Mediterranean air war series I understood the purpose of this plane.

Seaplanes and float planes
Bv 138 - innovate three engined seaplane design and quite effective, dangerously well armed
Bv 222 - huge a beast of the remote oceans, winner of many maritime fights with it's batteries of heavy guns
Ar 196 - useful and ubiquitous, and surprisingly well armed.
He 115 -menace to the North Sea convoys
Short Sunderland - biggest and best armed Allied float plane
A6M2-N - the most dangerous float plane fighter by far, maneuverable and well armed.
SC Seahawk - the American answer to the A6M2-N - late to the game but it was a nice fighter. 300 mph with floats is pretty good.

 

[BiffF15]

Yeah but that is from an experienced and very tough wartime pilot and combat veteran no less, with considerably more flight time in those aircraft than anyone posting in this group...

Schweik,

Yes he was a very experienced test pilot, whom had two kills of Condors. He crashed quite a few times, and has no combat against fighters that I can find. Your point seems to be that he is unquestionable by us mere mortals. He isn't. If you make a claim,statement or opinion known you must be ready to defend it. Obviously he is no longer with us but his opinions are so they get questioned, scrutinized, and closely examined. He, like all the rest of us, is fallible, and time usually accentuates that.

I will repeat what I said earlier, and that is if in two identical F15s, I couldn't beat a test pilot I would have been embarrassed. I realize we train very hard today, much more than they did in WW2, but a combat proficient pilot has a definitive edge over his non-proficient test pilot counterpart.

Personally I have just shy of 2700 hours in the Eagle, with over a 100 combat missions in it. I have another 80 combat sorties in other aircraft as well. .I can make statements on here regarding that, which leaves my 50+ year old brain open for mistakes and my comments open to scrutiny and cross examination. I learned years ago not to take it personal, nor think I'm the end all be all of a given subject.

Cheers,
Biff

 

[Ivan1GFP]

About Eric Brown, I did actually participate in a long interview with him some years back (alongside an experienced pilot on the type) regarding the Whirlwind fighter as we were trying to create a documentary about it specifically to raise its profile and led by someone who's father was the first Squadron Leader of the type. I guess that aircraft qualifies here too by the way.

Anyway it was very interesting to compare his view of the type with that of an active pilot on the aircraft. The pilot loved it as did nearly all his compatriots it seems however Eric Brown was totally dismissive of it which perhaps gives perspective on the attitudes between combat pilots and test pilots. He was certainly very opinionated and very good at putting his point across with impact shall we say. It made you both impressed by his self belief and very (even in his then late 80s) clear sharp mind and memory on such matters, that to be as successful as he was in his profession was I suspect a necessity. It would also on the other side of the coin probably create in himself strong views that might not necessarily be entirely fair (and certainly not nuanced) in all cases because perhaps the bigger/wider picture wasn't as important as the immediate and clear assessment. In the case of the Whirlwind he didn't fly it (I understand) till rather late in its cycle and as an aircraft that was never updated in its 4 year lifespan was probably for example too dismissive because by that time it was competing with aircraft that had gone through endless development, but then that was not his problem he would claim. Don't know if that is insightful or not in regards to the man but no one would survive in his capacity without strong opinions that gave answers in the immediate circumstances, especially within a wartime scenario, when instant answers were required for good or bad at times and he was the go to man for that.

I believe that reasons why Eric Brown did not like the Westland Whirlwind are actually hidden in your account.
By the time Brown flew the Whirlwind, it was no longer a competitive aircraft from a performance standpoint.
It was not competitive because it had not been updated during its 4 year lifespan.

It COULD NOT be updated because could not be stretched to take a different power plant.
It was designed around the Rolls Royce Peregrine engine which had no further development and the airframe could not take an upgrade to a Merlin engine or anything else that was available because of balance reasons. Thus it was a dead end for development and doomed to remain at the performance level it had at the beginning of its life.

I believe I saw a video in which he gave this explanation.

- Ivan.