Most innovative aircraft of WW2 ?

Peter Gunn · Jun 5, 2018

Kevin J said:
It wasn't just ANZUS troops that would have died. My favourite uncle was pencilled in for the invasion, and I'm sure my Dad would have been called up to go too. I'm with Truman and his decision, right or wrong in history, as it may have been.

AMEN. My father and a one of his brothers had been shuttled from the ETO to the Pacific for the coming invasion and another uncle was already in the Pacific at Saipan flying P-61's. None of them had any qualms about Truman's decision believe me.

But more to the point of the thread, while yes I'm a dyed in the wool Mustang lover so maybe that nullifies my vote which, for the reasons drgondog stated, goes to the P-51. Hell on range alone I find it pretty awesome, not because it carried so much fuel, it's that it used it more efficiently as well.

P-39 Expert · Jun 12, 2018

fastmongrel said:
1943 the Spitfire V wasnt the main air superiority fighter it was being replaced by the MkVII, MkVIII and MkIX

Hard to compare the P-39N with the two stage Spitfire IX et al.
But it does compare very favorably with the 109, 190, Zero, Oscar, Hellcat, Corsair, Lightning F/G etc.

fubar57 · Jun 12, 2018

tomo pauk · Jun 12, 2018

What Geo said.

Kevin J · Jun 12, 2018

P-39 Expert said:
Hard to compare the P-39N with the two stage Spitfire IX et al.
But it does compare very favorably with the 109, 190, Zero, Oscar, Hellcat, Corsair, Lightning F/G etc.

Yes, being replaced with Spitfires powered by two stage Merlins with comparable performances below 4000 metres.

michael rauls · Jul 15, 2018

Most innovative aircraft is fascinating in an aicraft can be innovative even if it is not a particularly good performer. The p-59 comes to mind. Other picks that were all good performers by contrast to my first example might be the p51 for its laminar flow wing, the p47 for its unique turbo-supercharger planform, or the me 262 for its combination of jet propulsion and swept wing( I believe it was the first to combine these two but would be fascinated to know if it was not)

GrauGeist · Jul 15, 2018

michael rauls said:
Most innovative aircraft is fascinating in an aicraft can be innovative even if it is not a particularly good performer. The p-59 comes to mind. Other picks that were all good performers by contrast to my first example might be the p51 for its laminar flow wing, the p47 for its unique turbo-supercharger planform, or the me 262 for its combination of jet propulsion and swept wing( I believe it was the first to combine these two but would be fascinated to know if it was not)

The Me262's "swept" wing was in order to correct CoG issues.
The Me262 didn't offer much in the way of innovation, as it wasn't the first combat jet to fly - that goes to the Heinkel He280, who's first flight was in 1940, a year before the 262's first flight (under piston power) and two years before the 262's first flight under jet power.

michael rauls · Jul 15, 2018

GrauGeist said:
The Me262's "swept" wing was in order to correct CoG issues.
The Me262 didn't offer much in the way of innovation, as it wasn't the first combat jet to fly - that goes to the Heinkel He280, who's first flight was in 1940, a year before the 262's first flight (under piston power) and two years before the 262's first flight under jet power.

Wow the 262s wing design was to correct center of gravity isues ( if I understand that corectly) Was that a case of adressing one issue but also getting an additional benefit i.e. sweeping the wing back to address a cog issue and getting better high speed caracteristics that a swept wing would ,at least as is my impression, afford.

GrauGeist · Jul 15, 2018

michael rauls said:
Wow the 262s wing design was to correct center of gravity isues ( if I understand that corectly) Was that a case of adressing one issue but also getting an additional benefit i.e. sweeping the wing back to address a cog issue and getting better high speed caracteristics that a swept wing would ,at least as is my impression, afford.

The 262's original design called for the engines to be inboard on the wings, but complications with the engines caused a redesign and the wings were moved back 12° from it's original plans.
There may have been a certain advantage to having a swept wing, but any speed advantage over the original design was negated when the engines were mounted under the wing.

The He280 had appreciable performance with it's semi-elliptical wings and since all first-gen WWII jets operated at speeds below Mach, the sweep was not a nessecary factor.

drgondog · Jul 15, 2018

michael rauls said:
Wow the 262s wing design was to correct center of gravity isues ( if I understand that corectly) Was that a case of adressing one issue but also getting an additional benefit i.e. sweeping the wing back to address a cog issue and getting better high speed caracteristics that a swept wing would ,at least as is my impression, afford.

13% sweep insufficient to bestow more than a couple of mph delay on compressibility but adequate to move CP aft far enough to permit a full aft fuselage fuel tank.

Absent that approach, the choices for original wing/fuselage attach (bulkhead, spar carry through, etc) moving aft for unmodified wing to achieve the same result - are ugly, expensive and time consuming.

michael rauls · Jul 15, 2018

drgondog said:
13% sweep insufficient to bestow more than a couple of mph delay on compressibility but adequate to move CP aft far enough to permit a full aft fuselage fuel tank.

Absent that approach, the choices for original wing/fuselage attach (bulkhead, spar carry through, etc) moving aft for unmodified wing to achieve the same result - are ugly, expensive and time consuming.

Yes I was thinking more in terms of delay of compressabilty as a possible benefit of a swept wing but all fascinating information. Thank you.

michael rauls · Jul 15, 2018

GrauGeist said:
The 262's original design called for the engines to be inboard on the wings, but complications with the engines caused a redesign and the wings were moved back 12° from it's original plans.
There may have been a certain advantage to having a swept wing, but any speed advantage over the original design was negated when the engines were mounted under the wing.

The He280 had appreciable performance with it's semi-elliptical wings and since all first-gen WWII jets operated at speeds below Mach, the sweep was not a nessecary factor.

I have read( yes I am becoming cautious about using that phrase around here) It is however, the best I can do on this question so here goes. I have read that Galland had nothing but superlative things to say about the me 262. Do you know if he pushed hard for its development and deployment to be sped up and was just hindered by the"polititions" so to speak?

Kevin J · Jul 15, 2018

michael rauls said:
I have read( yes I am becoming cautious about using that phrase around here) It is however, the best I can do on this question so here goes. I have read that Galland had nothing but superlative things to say about the me 262. Do you know if he pushed hard for its development and deployment to be sped up and was just hindered by the"polititions" so to speak?

Standard procedure for the German military in WW1 and WW2 was to blame everyone but themselves.

GrauGeist · Jul 15, 2018

michael rauls said:
Yes I was thinking more in terms of delay of compressabilty as a possible benefit of a swept wing but all fascinating information. Thank you.

The Germans were well aware of sweep in terms of Transonic flight as seen by their latewar designs, but none of their current engines were capable of pushing beyond that threshhold in level flight.

Some aircraft that incorporated an intentional swept design were the Messerschmitt HGIII (Me262 successor), Ta183, Me P.1101 (see the postwar Bell X-5) and the DFS346 to name a few examples.

GrauGeist · Jul 15, 2018

michael rauls said:
I have read( yes I am becoming cautious about using that phrase around here) It is however, the best I can do on this question so here goes. I have read that Galland had nothing but superlative things to say about the me 262. Do you know if he pushed hard for its development and deployment to be sped up and was just hindered by the"polititions" so to speak?

Galland was most certainly an outspoken advocate of the Me262 - to the point of pissing off Hitler.

He did have a large part in keeping the Me262A-1 design in production after Messerschmitt tried to appease Hitler by declaring the Me262 would make a good "Schnell bomber", which it wasn't originally designed to do. If Willy had told Hitler "no", then things may have been a little different in the 262's timeline AND at the time that Willy was sucking up to Hitler, the Ar234 was coming online - which WAS a true Schnell bomber...

michael rauls · Jul 15, 2018

GrauGeist said:
Galland was most certainly an outspoken advocate of the Me262 - to the point of pissing off Hitler.

He did have a large part in keeping the Me262A-1 design in production after Messerschmitt tried to appease Hitler by declaring the Me262 would make a good "Schnell bomber", which it wasn't originally designed to do. If Willy had told Hitler "no", then things may have been a little different in the 262's timeline AND at the time that Willy was sucking up to Hitler, the Ar234 was coming online - which WAS a true Schnell bomber...

I have always susspected that must have been the case( the part about Galland pushing for the 262 I mean) and being stymied by the political structure but never could find anything about that specificly. All fascinating information. Thank you!

Milosh · Jul 15, 2018

Want to know about the Me262, then read the 4 vol. tome by Smith/Creek from Classic.

michael rauls · Jul 15, 2018

Milosh said:
Want to know about the Me262, then read the 4 vol. tome by Smith/Creek from Classic.

Thanks for the reading ssuggestion. I seem to be compiling quite a list and that's a good thing.

GrauGeist · Jul 16, 2018

michael rauls said:
Thanks for the reading ssuggestion. I seem to be compiling quite a list and that's a good thing.

Another book on the Me262 that's good reading, is "The Me 262 Stormbird" by Colin Heaton and Anne-Marie Lewis, which not only covers the technical aspects, but has conversations with the Me262 pilots.

michael rauls · Jul 16, 2018

GrauGeist said:
Another book on the Me262 that's good reading, is "The Me 262 Stormbird" by Colin Heaton and Anne-Marie Lewis, which not only covers the technical aspects, but has conversations with the Me262 pilots.

That sounds like a must have. I am a sucker for reading pilots opinion and experiences for any plane but for the 262 thats really got to be interesting.

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