most manoeuvrable aircraft in ww2

[CatTheCool]

That's OK Cat, we're having fun. You have posted a very interesting thread.
I have spent every available minute the last few days putting together a list
of candidates that I believe to be the most maneuverable monoplane fighters
of WW2 under given conditions. I just need to know if that was what you
originally intended...?

If not, let the Bucker Bu133 Jungmeister fly.

Yes, that was what I intended.

 

[CORSNING]

Yes, that was what I intended.

OK then, I have the day off tomorrow and will post what I have.

This is not about the most modern aircraft, this is about Agility!

Perfect, that is exactly how I have put the list together.

The P-38 did not have the P-factor and torque problems of single engined prop fighters and as a result under the right circumstances could effectively out-turn an FW-190 by using a right climbing turn.

I have a copy of the true story of a P-38H in a continued on and off stalled turn staying
with a Spitfire XIV in a turn until the Spitfire pilot became frustrated and left the competition.
The P-38 was using a cloverleaf shape controlled stall turn that never gave the Spitfire
pilot a clear shot. The P-38H had the good engine but it did not have the 3000 psi hydraulically
boosted fowlers.

Love the Hawk 75.

Me to.

One often overlooked fighter that had a reputation of turning better than the A6M, was the N1K2-J.

Correct, the conditions of that reputation will show up in my listing tomorrow.

Biff,
Thank you for your POST #75. You said all I was going to say and so very much more.
I always love your input. You need to write a book on all that great stuff.

CRAP! Diana (my usually wonderful wife) said I can't post the info I wanted to tonight
because she is ready for us to kick back and have family time soon. She told me to go in
and get a shower ( I had to work today). I have to go now guys but I'll post it tomorrow
because I have the day off.

 

[MIflyer]

A friend of mine was a radio operator in a PB4Y-2 attacked by 12 George II fighters . The two Privateers dove down low over the water and turned into the head on attacks. They shot down two of the George fighters and my friend's airplane had the throttle for one engine shot away, the top of the ERCO nose turret blown off and had other damage inside, including a radio blown up and a crewman with a wound in the back from where a cannon round exploded on the inside back of his armored seat. But they made it home and two of the 343rd Kokutai fighters did not.

A Privateer was practically a YB-40 when it came to lethality, or worse.

Imagine having 12 of those things come at you for 30 min!

 

[MIflyer]

Don't know why this is here!

 

[CORSNING]

I am going to make an attempt to answer the question posted by the author of
this post to the best of my ability. I have enjoyed reading the many good posts
of all involved. Biff mentioned pilot ability also having a play in the maneuverability
of an aircraft. This is very true, however pilot's skill will not be used in my following
ranking of aircraft. I will stick to just the machines themselves. Biff also suggested
breaking down the aircraft in yearly categories. This could be done, and would be
fun and entertaining, but would take very time consuming research.

The following is my interpretation of the original question:
Most Maneuverable Aircraft in WW2.
with the following clarification of that title:
The most maneuverable monoplane fighter aircraft of WW2.
along with one more clarification;
This is not about the most modern aircraft, this is about agility!. (Cat Post #64)
So the time frame for the following list is 1939-1945.

The list displays my 1st, 2nd & 3rd choices in each speed range. It also limits the
field to somewhere up to about each aircraft's combat ceiling (1,000 fpm climb
capability).

1. Ki.27-1b, A5M4 & Ki.43-Ib up to 220 mph.

2. Ki.43-II, A6M2 & Ki.27-Ib from 220 to 250 mph.

3. Ki.43-II, A6M3m32 & B-239 from 250 to 280 mph.

4. Ki.43-III, N1K2-J & Ki.100 from 280 to 300 mph.

5. N1K2-J, Ki.100, Yak-3 from 300 to 325 mph.

6. Yak-3, Ki.100, N1K2-J from 325 to 340 mph.

7. Yak-3, Yak-9 & La-5FN from 340 to 360 mph.

8. Yak-3, La-7 & Yak-9U from 360 to 380 mph.

9. La-7, Yak-9U & P-63A-7 from 380 to 425 mph.

The above listing is considering all the WW2 fighters overall maneuverability. Not
just their turning circle or time. It includes their initial and sustained roll rates. Both
horizontal and vertical abilities. It also includes their dynamic abilities, acceleration,
deceleration and quickness of direction change. I only listed each aircraft up to its
maximum speeds even if it was fully maneuverable above those speeds like the
Ki.100. After their maximum speeds their horizontal abilities would rapidly taper
back as maneuvering decreased there speed.

Some of the aircraft that just missed the list by a frog's hair were:
CW-21(A & B)
J2M3m21
I-16 t29
P-38J-25
P-40N-1
FM-2
Ki.84-1a
P-66
Spitfire IX
Spitfire XIV
P-36A

OK, then, this is my current opinion which can easily be changed.

 

[CORSNING]

You know, it just dawned on me that I may have used pilot skill to
some degree of my ratings. The Ki.100 with its ease of controls and
the P-38's lack of ease of controls may have had some affect on my
final decisions...?

 

[CatTheCool]

I am going to make an attempt to answer the question posted by the author of
this post to the best of my ability. I have enjoyed reading the many good posts
of all involved. Biff mentioned pilot ability also having a play in the maneuverability
of an aircraft. This is very true, however pilot's skill will not be used in my following
ranking of aircraft. I will stick to just the machines themselves. Biff also suggested
breaking down the aircraft in yearly categories. This could be done, and would be
fun and entertaining, but would take very time consuming research.

The following is my interpretation of the original question:
Most Maneuverable Aircraft in WW2.
with the following clarification of that title:
The most maneuverable monoplane fighter aircraft of WW2.
along with one more clarification;
This is not about the most modern aircraft, this is about agility!. (Cat Post #64)
So the time frame for the following list is 1939-1945.

The list displays my 1st, 2nd & 3rd choices in each speed range. It also limits the
field to somewhere up to about each aircraft's combat ceiling (1,000 fpm climb
capability).

1. Ki.27-1b, A5M4 & Ki.43-Ib up to 220 mph.

2. Ki.43-II, A6M2 & Ki.27-Ib from 220 to 250 mph.

3. Ki.43-II, A6M3m32 & B-239 from 250 to 280 mph.

4. Ki.43-III, N1K2-J & Ki.100 from 280 to 300 mph.

5. N1K2-J, Ki.100, Yak-3 from 300 to 325 mph.

6. Yak-3, Ki.100, N1K2-J from 325 to 340 mph.

7. Yak-3, Yak-9 & La-5FN from 340 to 370 mph.

8. Yak-3, La-7 & Yak-9U from 370 to 410 mph.

9. La-7, Yak-9U & P-63A-7 from 410 to 425 mph.

The above listing is considering all the WW2 fighters overall manoeuvrability. Not
just their turning circle or time. It includes their initial and sustained roll rates. Both
horizontal and vertical abilities. It also includes their dynamic abilities, acceleration,
deceleration and quickness of direction change. I only listed each aircraft up to its
maximum speeds even if it was fully manoeuvrable above those speeds like the
Ki.100. After their maximum speeds, their horizontal abilities would rapidly taper
back as manoeuvring decreased there speed.

Some of the aircraft that just missed the list by a frog's hair were:
CW-21(A & B)
J2M3m21
I-16 t29
P-38J-25
P-40N-1
FM-2
Ki.84-1a
P-66
Spitfire IX
Spitfire XIV
P-36A

OK, then, this is my current opinion which can easily be change

Thank you Very much! Poor poor Spitfire!

 

[Dimlee]

I'm not sure about Yaks, especially Yak-3 in ##7-8 of above list. I might be wrong (did not read about Yaks for 10 years or so) but controls would become "wooden" (as they said) at such speed, IMHO.

 

[CatTheCool]

Also, wasn't the Spitfire MkI/MkII/MkV very agile?

 

[CORSNING]

This is a very welcomed statement Dimlee. My original Post #85 was 25% from memory.

I'm not sure about Yaks, especially Yak-3 in ##7-8 of above list. I might be wrong (did not read about Yaks for 10 years or so) but controls would become "wooden" (as they said) at such speed, IMHO.

I have adjusted my original post accordingly. Thank you Dimlee. All corrections are welcome.
The way I see it, we are all trying to put together the best list possible many years after the fact.
I have dug deeper and found this statement by Major-General (Ret.) Nikolay Gerasimovitch Golodnikov;

"I haven't yet said anything about the Yak-3 that appeared in 1944. In its ability to accelerate and thrust-to-weight ratio, and for magnitude of combat speed, it was a unique fighter. The difference between its combat and maximum speed was 40-50 kmh (25-30 mph)."
"it was not the fastest, but in combat it could outrun any enemy in practically any form of maneuver."

Thank you sir , Jeff

 

[CORSNING]

Also, wasn't the Spitfire MkI/MkII/MkV very agile?

Yes, but these were more so: Ki.27, Ki.43, A5M, P-36/Hawk 75, IK-3, CW-21, F2A-1, I-16 t29,......etc, etc.
Thank you Cat for the great thread , Jeff

 

[fliger747]

Let's consider another aspect of maneuverability, the ability to appear when needed and where needed and able to control the battle, engage or disengage who necessary or desirable. Climb, speed, acceleration, diving speed are all aspects of "maneuverability".

 

[Reluctant Poster]

OK then, I have the day off tomorrow and will post what I have.



Perfect, that is exactly how I have put the list together.

The P-38 did not have the P-factor and torque problems of single engined prop fighters and as a result under the right circumstances could effectively out-turn an FW-190 by using a right climbing turn.

I have a copy of the true story of a P-38H in a continued on and off stalled turn staying
with a Spitfire XIV in a turn until the Spitfire pilot became frustrated and left the competition.
The P-38 was using a cloverleaf shape controlled stall turn that never gave the Spitfire
pilot a clear shot. The P-38H had the good engine but it did not have the 3000 psi hydraulically
boosted fowlers.

That story has been discounted many times

 

[fliger747]

A good multi engine pilot can do some good things with differential thrust.

: )

 

[GrauGeist]

Several other types to be looked at, would be the G.55, IAR 80 and MC.205, too.

 

[Clayton Magnet]

Let's consider another aspect of maneuverability, the ability to appear when needed and where needed and able to control the battle, engage or disengage who necessary or desirable. Climb, speed, acceleration, diving speed are all aspects of "maneuverability".

I'd say that is "shifting the goal posts" a bit

 

[CORSNING]

Let's consider another aspect of maneuverability, the ability to appear when needed and where needed and able to control the battle, engage or disengage who necessary or desirable. Climb, speed, acceleration, diving speed are all aspects of "maneuverability".

I very much agree Fliger. All the above mentioned categories are exactly what made the Bf 109E-3/-4
so dangerous in the Battle of France and the Battle of Britain. I would also like to add to the 109s
merits a quote from Erich Hartmann when asked in an interview, " Is the Spitfire more maneuverable
than the Bf 109? ". Erich answered, " Yes, but not by as much as you might think ".

The Bf 109 was a very maneuverable fighter when not laden by wing gun pods.

 

[CORSNING]

A good multi engine pilot can do some good things with differential thrust.

Yes sir, that is true. I know of one maneuver that I had not heard that any other WW2 could do,
" An added benefit of the dive recovery flaps was their ability to pitch the nose 10-20 degrees
"up" momentarily when trying to out turn the Luftwaffe's best,.....Of course the nose "pitch-up"
resulted in increased aerodynamic drag, and must be used cautiously. "

 

[CORSNING]

Several other types to be looked at, would be the G.55, IAR 80 and MC.205, too.

Turn times I have for these fighters come from Erik Pilawskii's " Fighter Aircraft Performance of WW2,
A Comparative Study ". The times given for these fighters is observed at 4,000 m. for a 360 degree
turn.
G.55/I: 19.25 seconds.
IAR 80c: 20.0 seconds.
M.C. 205V series I: 19.5 seconds.

For comparison at that altitude:
A6M5: 17.0 seconds
Ki 43-IIa: 14.5 seconds
Yak-3: 17.0 seconds.
F4U-1D: 19.5 seconds.
P-39Q-25 (VVS): 19.0 seconds.
FM-2: 17.7 seconds.
B-239: 15.8 seconds.
ETC.....

 

[GrauGeist]

Was there a speed factor applied?

As we know, the A6M was the champ of low-speed turning and the IAR 80 was able to out-turn the P-38 during their battles. In the case of the P-38/IAR 80, these were during Ploesti missions, where the P-38s were escorting the bombers, not CAP.