Most Overrated aircraft of WWII.....?

[Stig1207]

I'm having trouble trying to see where the Hurricane was able to get 95% of their 6,000 claimed out of the BoB.

Well, there is also the BoF , but you are right; it's not plausible that Hurricanes got that many claims/ credits in this period of the war. In fact, seeing as the main action was in the period May-October 1940, RAF pilots would have to have claimed on average more than a 1000 enemy aircraft per month!
Hurricanes being credited with 6000 victories in the ETO simply defies credibility.

 

[Kevin J]

Well, there is also the BoF , but you are right; it's not plausible that Hurricanes got that many claims/ credits in this period of the war. In fact, seeing as the main action was in the period May-October 1940, RAF pilots would have to have claimed on average more than a 1000 enemy aircraft per month!
Hurricanes being credited with 6000 victories in the ETO simply defies credibility.

There are 58 months of war for the UK, so about 200 victories per month are required, say 11600 claimed victories.

 

[Kevin J]

Well, there is also the BoF , but you are right; it's not plausible that Hurricanes got that many claims/ credits in this period of the war. In fact, seeing as the main action was in the period May-October 1940, RAF pilots would have to have claimed on average more than a 1000 enemy aircraft per month!
Hurricanes being credited with 6000 victories in the ETO simply defies credibility.

In 1940, there was the Battle of France, Dunkirk and the Battle of Britain so about 2500 confirmed victories in this period of 5 months, but the over claim rate for this period was 2 or 3 to one. Maybe we're looking at 5000 claims for this period.

 

[Kevin J]

Okay lets take this from another angle, from 1939 to 1945, Fighter command lost 3690 killed, 1215 wounded and 601 POW, 4790 were aircraft were lost. We know that RAF claims in the BoB were 1.7 kills per Spitfire and 1.1 per Hurricane. Overall claims were over twice the number of aircraft shot down than in reality. In the Air Offensive over France in 1941/42, Spitfire claims were three times reality. According to the 10500 overall claims for the RAF in the ETO of which a third were by Spitfires, then the Spitfires downed 3500 or about 700 p.a. from 1940 to 1945, which is a plausible figure for claims, they claimed 711 in 1941 in the France air offensive, 236 from all causes in reality, so an over claimed kill ratio of 3 to 1. So the Spitfire figure seems reasonable. I've got to log in for work, so I'll come back to this one later and edit this post.

The Hurricane was our sole fighter operating in the Phoney War in France, our sole fighter in the Battle of France, and was only joined by Spitfires at Dunkirk. In the BoB, there were equal numbers of Hurricanes operating in the main area of battle which was South East England. During the air offensive over France in 1941, the Hurricane was still employed for rear area air defence, as an escort for Blenheim light bombers, and as a fighter bomber escorted by Spitfires. From 1942, the Hurricane operated as a day and night intruder successfully attacking German bombers taking off or landing at their airfields. The Typhoon began to replace it in the fighter bomber role in September 1942 and as a rocket armed fighter from September 1943.

 

[Kevin J]

In 1940, there was the Battle of France, Dunkirk and the Battle of Britain so about 2500 confirmed victories in this period of 5 months, but the over claim rate for this period was 2 or 3 to one. Maybe we're looking at 5000 claims for this period.

What was the German production in this period to make up its losses.

 

[Navalwarrior]

Okay lets take this from another angle, from 1939 to 1945, Fighter command lost 3690 killed, 1215 wounded and 601 POW, 4790 were aircraft were lost. We know that RAF claims in the BoB were 1.7 kills per Spitfire and 1.1 per Hurricane. Overall claims were over twice the number of aircraft shot down than in reality. In the Air Offensive over France in 1941/42, Spitfire claims were three times reality. According to the 10500 overall claims for the RAF in the ETO of which a third were by Spitfires, then the Spitfires downed 3500 or about 700 p.a. from 1940 to 1945, which is a plausible figure for claims, they claimed 711 in 1941 in the France air offensive, 236 from all causes in reality, so an over claimed kill ratio of 3 to 1. So the Spitfire figure seems reasonable. I've got to log in for work, so I'll come back to this one later and edit this post.

Okay lets take this from another angle, from 1939 to 1945, Fighter command lost 3690 killed, 1215 wounded and 601 POW, 4790 were aircraft were lost. We know that RAF claims in the BoB were 1.7 kills per Spitfire and 1.1 per Hurricane. Overall claims were over twice the number of aircraft shot down than in reality. In the Air Offensive over France in 1941/42, Spitfire claims were three times reality. According to the 10500 overall claims for the RAF in the ETO of which a third were by Spitfires, then the Spitfires downed 3500 or about 700 p.a. from 1940 to 1945, which is a plausible figure for claims, they claimed 711 in 1941 in the France air offensive, 236 from all causes in reality, so an over claimed kill ratio of 3 to 1. So the Spitfire figure seems reasonable. I've got to log in for work, so I'll come back to this one later and edit this post.

Resp:
Earlier the statement was made that enemy lost 1 out of 6 Bf109s due to running out of fuel. While these loses cannot be claimed as 'kills' they are still losses. Every time 12 entered RAF airspace, two were taken out of the equation. How were these loses reported/calculated?

 

[Kevin J]

Resp:
Earlier the statement was made that enemy lost 1 out of 6 Bf109s due to running out of fuel. While these loses cannot be claimed as 'kills' they are still losses. Every time 12 entered RAF airspace, two were taken out of the equation. How were these loses reported/calculated?

I assume that the RAF thought they were confirmed kills. Maybe the Germans reported them as ditched as out of fuel. It makes your stats look better for the public. Propaganda.

 

[tomo pauk]

...
During the air offensive over France in 1941, the Hurricane was still employed for rear area air defence, as an escort for Blenheim light bombers, and as a fighter bomber escorted by Spitfires.

The bolded part says it all - by the time RAF's best was slugging it over France in 1942, Hurricanes were not used to help out there, but instead they waited for Luftwaffe to appear from, say, Western Aproaches?

From 1942, the Hurricane operated as a day and night intruder successfully attacking German bombers taking off or landing at their airfields. The Typhoon began to replace it in the fighter bomber role in September 1942 and as a rocket armed fighter from September 1943.

Pray tell, where the Hurricanes were employed as night intruders to succesfully attack German bomber bases in 1942?

Probably I need to be reminded that faith is not to be discussed.

 

[Navalwarrior]

The bolded part says it all - by the time RAF's best was slugging it over France in 1942, Hurricanes were not used to help out there, but instead they waited for Luftwaffe to appear from, say, Western Aproaches?



Pray tell, where the Hurricanes were employed as night intruders to succesfully attack German bomber bases in 1942?

Probably I need to be reminded that faith is not to be discussed.

Resp:
Were Hurricanes sent/relocated to other Theaters, such as the MTO?

 

[tomo pauk]

Resp:
Were Hurricanes sent/relocated to other Theaters, such as the MTO?

Then it needs to be said so. We're left with a big hint that somehow Hurricanes were making mess of LW bomber bases anywhere, even in the areas where Spitfires have hard time to survive.
Or, in another words, I'm getting too old to agree with people wearing rose glasses that are painting their pet pony in shiny colors.

 

[Navalwarrior]

Then it needs to be said so. We're left with a big hint that somehow Hurricanes were making mess of LW bomber bases anywhere, even in the areas where Spitfires have hard time to survive.
Or, in another words, I'm getting too old to agree with people wearing rose glasses that are painting their pet pony in shiny colors.

Resp:
Agree fully. The enemy needs to be continuely pushed, leaving them little time to re-group.

 

[Kevin J]

The bolded part says it all - by the time RAF's best was slugging it over France in 1942, Hurricanes were not used to help out there, but instead they waited for Luftwaffe to appear from, say, Western Aproaches?



Pray tell, where the Hurricanes were employed as night intruders to succesfully attack German bomber bases in 1942?

Probably I need to be reminded that faith is not to be discussed.

One of our Czech fighter pilots killed about 15/20 bombers over Luftwaffe bomber bases in France during 1942, so there must have been others doing the same thing. His mount was a Hurricane IIc. Karel Kuttelwascher - Wikipedia

 

[tomo pauk]

One of our Czech fighter pilots killed about 15/20 bombers over Luftwaffe bomber bases in France during 1942, so there must have been others doing the same thing. His mount was a Hurricane IIc. Karel Kuttelwascher - Wikipedia

He probably did.
On the other hand, there is a difference between "a day and night intruder", that you claimed Hurricane was succesful, and "night intruder", where Kuttelwascher's unit excelled. Down with the rosy glasses.

 

[Kevin J]

He probably did.
On the other hand, there is a difference between "a day and night intruder", that you claimed Hurricane was succesful, and "night intruder", where Kuttelwascher's unit excelled. Down with the rosy glasses.

It was meant to be used as both day and night intruder, although the Whirlwind was clearly the better plane for the daytime, as it was much much faster. The wartime record of the RAF aircraft known as the Hawker Hurricane IIC

 

[Navalwarrior]

One of our Czech fighter pilots killed about 15/20 bombers over Luftwaffe bomber bases in France during 1942, so there must have been others doing the same thing. His mount was a Hurricane IIc. Karel Kuttelwascher - Wikipedia

Resp:
Interesting. Thanks for clearing up the definition of 'Night Intruder' as I was thinking 'Nightfigher.' Also a good use of drop tanks, as it afforded additional time over target.

 

[Shortround6]

Much as I like the Whirlwind it was used as a fighter/bomber day intruder pretty much to bulk up numbers as there were only TWO Hurricane squadrons doing such work in 1942. And if a Hurricane is carrying drop tanks it isn't carrying much of anything else.

 

[Navalwarrior]

Much as I like the Whirlwind it was used as a fighter/bomber day intruder pretty much to bulk up numbers as there were only TWO Hurricane squadrons doing such work in 1942. And if a Hurricane is carrying drop tanks it isn't carrying much of anything else.

Resp:
The drop tanks allowed them to fly around until they found a target, giving them plenty of fuel to attack and get home. The Czech pilot would not have been as successful otherwise.

 

[Stig1207]

In 1940, there was the Battle of France, Dunkirk and the Battle of Britain so about 2500 confirmed victories in this period of 5 months, but the over claim rate for this period was 2 or 3 to one. Maybe we're looking at 5000 claims for this period

There were some 2700 claims during the BoB alone, so there may well be 5000 claims for the whole period ; how many were credited/ confirmed, who knows?
Hurricanes, I suspect, may have been credited with a couple of thousand up to the end of 1940; but after that only a couple of hundred credits, including Kuttelwaschers.

 

[Reluctant Poster]

I recently posted Gilruth's report No 755 in another thread but apparently no one read it. Here's the link if any one wants to read it
The P-38J and L in the European theater.

 

[Kevin J]

There were some 2700 claims during the BoB alone, so there may well be 5000 claims for the whole period ; how many were credited/ confirmed, who knows?
Hurricanes, I suspect, may have been credited with a couple of thousand up to the end of 1940; but after that only a couple of hundred credits, including Kuttelwaschers.

Go and look at the 'air war over Britain' page on facebook and you'll see Hurricanes were shooting down Luftwaffe planes over Britain from the end of the BoB all the way through 1941, then there are the night intruder claims over France from 1942 thought to 1943, 50/60 just in the first three months of ops by two squadrons. So you should have about 200 at least. If there were 2700 claims in the BoB then 1620 of them would be by Hurricanes plus the 500 in the Battle of France and perhaps 150 at Dunkirk. That gives you 2470 without taking account of the other actions that Hurricanes took part in such as ADGB from November 1940 to December 1941 plus of course the Phoney War, any victories claimed when escorting Blenheim bombers, any victories claimed as fighter bombers after releasing their bombs which went on until 1942/43 when the Typhoon took over as a fighter bomber. Would doubling the figures sound unreasonable? That would get you to 5000, although there's probably dramatic over claiming as escorts. Remember the Messers in the BoB, they thought they'd destroyed RAF Fighter Command so they switched their attacks to London, big mistake. By the end of the BoB the Luftwaffe had not only shot down every Spitfire produced to that time but also ones that weren't completed until Spring 1941. Their Hurricane victories were a bit more accurate only being out by a 33% over claim.