Thats not the part I am talking about, although I do think you are exaggerating that as well.
Although we probably are both exaggerating...
Most Overrated aircraft of WWII.....? (7 Viewers)
- Thread starter Lucky13
- Start date
Thats not the part I am talking about, although I do think you are exaggerating that as well.
Although we probably are both exaggerating...
Peter Gunn
Master Sergeant
Like everyone else in the thread, you're entitled to your opinion.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Wrong. According to the USAF, P-80A (44-85642) unpainted was the fastest of the WARTIME era P-80s...not POSTWAR P-80s, like the P-80C.
Data from TSFTE-2053 (14 Feb 47)
5,000 feet: 525mph
20,000 feet: 522mph
35,000 feet: 502mph
The Me262A (standard production with Jumo004B engines) was faster
10,000 feet: 530mph
20,000 feet: 540mph
32,000 feet: 506mph
If you'd take a little time to read about the late war situation in Germany, you'd then know it was dire. No fuel, no rubber and other essentials so that pilot training was limited mostly to short ground school. Pilot attrition also meant that the Luftwaffe was desperate to get pilots into action in a short amount of time.
They also relaxed the pilot rank, which ultimately saw ranks as low as Gefreiter and Fleiger piloting fighters. An Me262 ace held the rank of Gefreiter (Joseph Heim) and several others were Feldwebels or Oberfeldwebels.
And Yeager shot down ONE Me262...as it was landing...
What is there to dislike about this post? Isn't everyone entitled to an opinion. And the B-29 being overrated or not is a matter of opinion is it not?
TheMadPenguin
Senior Airman
<wiki> [T]est pilot Major Frederic Borsodi was killed in a crash caused by an engine fire demonstrating a YP-80A (44-83026) at RAF Burtonwood, Lancashire, England, on 28 January 1945, the YP-80A was temporarily grounded </wiki>
Pilots killed (Burchman & Bong) before P-80's were deployed). <wiki> "Both Burcham and Bong crashed as a result of main fuel pump failure. Burcham's death was the result of a failure to brief him on a newly installed emergency fuel pump backup system, but the investigation of Bong's crash found that he had apparently forgotten to switch on this pump, which could have prevented the accident. " </wiki>
swampyankee
Chief Master Sergeant
- 4,306
- Jun 25, 2013
Possibly because many of them seem to yearn for a world when the nazis won. They're even worse than the lost cause nut jobs.
Is that a yes?
I don't think there are many of those around...
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GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
I don't think it's a yearning for a world where Nazis won, it's more of an obsession of the fantastic - the odd and almost sci-fi quality of many of the German what-ifs.
The U.S. had quite a few of those, but oddly enough, there doesn't seem to be as much fascination.
The U.S. had quite a few of those, but oddly enough, there doesn't seem to be as much fascination.
Escuadrilla Azul
Master Sergeant
- 2,312
- Feb 27, 2020
Sorry in the delay in getting in the debate. Here in Spain we get in alarm state in the weekend and have a rough time the days before and after that.
To many messages to reply one by one ( and some got replied already).
To recall my position:
If the polling is about aircraft that got to much credit in regard to the merits it have (thence "overrated"), IMO the A20 deserves its share, more than the other aircraft in the poll.
In no way I meant (or said) that wasn't a good plane, neither that it was incapable, but was as vulnerable as other aircraft in the same role if unescorted (Operation Oyster is a good example).
As someone said, the bulk of USAAF use of the A20 was in 43-44, when other aircrafts were in service in the same role, as least as capable and more versalite.
I'm in no way trying to convince anyone or argue endlessly, just have a nice time and sure you all make it happen. Hat off people, very interesting.
To many messages to reply one by one ( and some got replied already).
To recall my position:
If the polling is about aircraft that got to much credit in regard to the merits it have (thence "overrated"), IMO the A20 deserves its share, more than the other aircraft in the poll.
In no way I meant (or said) that wasn't a good plane, neither that it was incapable, but was as vulnerable as other aircraft in the same role if unescorted (Operation Oyster is a good example).
As someone said, the bulk of USAAF use of the A20 was in 43-44, when other aircrafts were in service in the same role, as least as capable and more versalite.
I'm in no way trying to convince anyone or argue endlessly, just have a nice time and sure you all make it happen. Hat off people, very interesting.
That's because they became what they were or didn't at all nothing stopped their development. You can fantasise about what music Buddy Holly would have produced but not Paul McCartney.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Same applies to the Confederacy (of the U.S. Civil War) where plenty of "what-ifs" have been written. There's a large following (mostly Steam Punk fans) for "what-ifs" regarding the German Empire (with interesting airships, steam powered tanks, etc.) and so on.
So yes, fully agree about the Buddy Holly comparison.
So yes, fully agree about the Buddy Holly comparison.
swampyankee
Chief Master Sergeant
- 4,306
- Jun 25, 2013
A lot of German WWII hardware has both elements of the fantastic* (Focke-Wulf Triebflügel) and bizarre (Bv141). Some seemed more advanced than anything the Allies fielded (Me163, which may actually have been more advanced, and Do335, which wasn't). There also, alas, seems to be some amount of teutonophilia involved, in that there seems to be an almost worshipful assignment of advancements to the Germans even when they weren't deserved.
One rather odd case is the meme that the Bismarck's AAA fire control couldn't gain solutions on the Swordfish as the Swordfish was so slow, with the implication that the Kriegsmarine and OKW would never deploy a biplane at that late date. First, I don't think the Germans were stupid, as that would be necessary for a military procurement system to accept a system that wouldn't work on aircraft that were in service at the time it was specified, and, second, the Germans had designed and constructed biplane for exactly the same main role as the Swordfish.
One rather odd case is the meme that the Bismarck's AAA fire control couldn't gain solutions on the Swordfish as the Swordfish was so slow, with the implication that the Kriegsmarine and OKW would never deploy a biplane at that late date. First, I don't think the Germans were stupid, as that would be necessary for a military procurement system to accept a system that wouldn't work on aircraft that were in service at the time it was specified, and, second, the Germans had designed and constructed biplane for exactly the same main role as the Swordfish.
Well, just for giggles, imagine this.
On the eve of Barbarossa somebody plants a bomb at a 3rd Reich strategy meeting, and Hitler, Goering, Himmler, Goebbels, Raeder and Heydrich are killed. Milch, Doenitz, Galland, Rommel, and the general staffs of Wehrmacht, Luftwaffe, and Kriegsmarine survive and are now running the show. The mobilization to the east is written off as a "theoretical logistics exercise" while Ribbentrop makes nice-nice to Stalin and the non aggression pact is extended, freeing Stalin to chastise the Japanese for their activities in Manchuria. All the manpower and weaponry collected for Barbarossa is now available for reinforcing the Atlantic Wall, consolidating a secure supply of Libyan oil and eliminating Malta and Alexandria as threats to the Med as an Axis Lake.
With only one (well equipped) front in active combat, resources can now be freed up to pursue some of the tech developments that were backbunered by "blitzkrieg fever", such as jet fighter, submarine schnorkel, V weapons, Walther propulsion, airborne radar, remotely guided missiles, the "Skipjack style" streamlined high speed submarine, acoustic torpedoes, and nuclear research. With the Allies eliminated from the Med, and Suez in German hands, Britain is effectively at a standstill, and another "sitzkrieg" ensues on land, while the German surface navy is starved into a "force in being" which rattles its sword occasionally to keep the RN in Scapa Flow, but consumes minimal resources, while the Uboat Navy goes all-out, introducing ominous new technologies.
Pearl Harbor doesn't happen on schedule, as the festivities in Manchuria have taken the wind out of the sails of the "Southern Option" faction in the Supreme Council, and the conflict being a land war, puts the IJA in the driver's seat over the IJN, with resulting domination of the available resources.
Meanwhile, the US slumbers peaceably on, with isolationism and The German-American Bund gaining in popularity, the song "Ruben James" becoming ever more popular, and Roosevelt's "Anglophile" tendencies becoming more and more under attack.
So there's the world as it exists on December 31, 1941. I've laid out the blueprint; y'all have fun now, hear?
Cheers,
Wes
PS: Mods, feel free to delete this as off topic, or kick it into a different thread.
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Peter Gunn
Master Sergeant
Meh, merely me expressing my opinion about his opinion. I happen to disagree with him, I don't think the B-29 was prone to killing it's crews etc. which is my opinion.
Depends on your timeframe of reference. The B29 was a bunch of newfangled ideas, stretched to (or beyond) the limits of their current technologies and expected to perform en masse at the limits of their ability, while still getting sorted out. Naturally there were casualties. Early on, the casualties were rather heavy. By VJ day, the B29 was closing in on "well oiled machine" status. Postwar, it became a workhorse, forming the backbone of the strategic bombing fleet until the jets took over, way outnumbering the B36 force.
Cheers,
Wes
glennasher
Senior Airman
No one can deny that the Germans had a heckuva lot of rather fantastic ideas, and the technological know-how to do most of them. They didn't have the resources to fulfill their obviously talented brains, nor the time to do it. The US DID have the time, resources and brains to do it, which is why, in part, the Allies won. The Soviets had massive manpower, and the will to let them die to win. There's just no way the Germans could have won, regardless of their technological expertise. It always seemed to me that if there two ways of doing things, the Germans would take the "busy" road, making things a lot more complicated than necessary to get things done.
The Allied side more or less took the Stalin way of thinking, "Quantity has a quality of it's own".
This is typical of post war views of the war. What actually was done is less impressive than fantasy scenarios of what could have been done in a different war. Did the Nazi regime have a weapon that would disable their submarine pens and sink their best battleship with a single or few hits? Making a submarine so unsafe below water that the commanders were instructed to "duke it out" with aircraft rather than dive. Shooting down German night fighters close to their home airfield purely for psychological effect. De coding what was considered the most complex military code at the time "in real time". These are just a few of the fantasies that were done. When Germany invaded Poland a single engine fighter that could fly to Berlin, fight for 20 minutes and then return to UK was fantasy, when that fantasy became reality Goering knew the gig was over.
The B-29 did have its fair share of issues as any new advanced technology does (then and now). The kinks were worked out and overall it was a fine design more capable than any bomber to see service in the war.
