MOST UNDERRATED AIRCRAFT OF WWII? (1 Viewer)

Shortround6 · Jul 7, 2016

James W. said:
Piston area & piston speed, rpm & pressure,

What is remarkable is that the Sabre was actually built, even if in modest numbers, & saw useful service, unlike
the equivalent P & W attempt , any of the adventurous R-R designs, or the German piston exotics.

The real question is should it have been built or should it have been consigned to the rubbish bin like most of those other engines.
The total cost of the sleeve valve adventure may never be known but it was millions of pounds for not a lot of result.
Some people estimated that the sleeve valve engines cost 2 to 4 times per horsepower what a Merlin did (NOT including research and development) which goes a long long way in explaining why they built so many Merlins and not so many exotic engines.

Milosh · Jul 7, 2016

Title of the thread:
MOST UNDERRATED AIRCRAFT OF WWII?

Afaik WW2 ended in Europe on May 8 1945 so why all this talk about post WW2 engines?

Shortround6 · Jul 7, 2016

James W. said:
Sure, whatever the most highly developed versions were..
Note the fuel used? 100/130 grade..

You stared this claiming they over produced Merlins in WW II and should have built other engines.
I am sure the US Navy would have LOVED using F4U-5s or F8F-2 Bearcats in 1943.

P & W R-2800-32W (E series) could make 2850hp at 30,000ft without turbo. Can the Sabre match it???

wuzak · Jul 7, 2016

James W. said:
Depends on the airframe, a Spit XIV take-off on +25lbs with the throttle 'through the gate' would be a wild ride...

No, it is pointless using the specific fuel consumption for an engine mode which is only used rarely, if ever.

The BSFC that should be used is for a mode for flight.

wuzak · Jul 7, 2016

James W. said:
Piston area & piston speed, rpm & pressure,

38% more piston area to go with the 40% increase in rpm.

Not sure you can justify the pressure bit.

wuzak · Jul 7, 2016

James W. said:
With the right supercharger, sure, the Tempest I prototype was doing 470+ mph at ~25,000 ft in early 1943..

That doesn't answer the question.

wuzak · Jul 7, 2016

James W. said:
That is why the cruise rating is used for quoting that parameter, perhaps, W?

Sorry, you were quoting hp/lb or lb/hp.

Still seems a little pointless.

GregP · Jul 7, 2016

Do you have any idea how the valves in a Formula 1 engine operate?

Shortround6 · Jul 7, 2016

James W. said:
Merlin Hurricanes could not do a Typhoon's work, Nor could a Merlin Spit do a Tempest's job.
800+ V1s not crashing down on London more than paid for a few hundred Tempests.

& how many thousand Merlins were wastefully scattered over Germany?
If the Sabre had been built in sufficient numbers to make the high-speed bomber a reality, it would be savings in real terms.

Like factory G.P. racers, for fighter planes, top performance comes before penny-pinching..

There were TWO, count 'em. TWO Hurricane fighter bomber squadrons operating in Europe in 1942. This is the reason the Whirlwind got a reprieve and was fitted with bomb racks. It doubles the number of fighter bomber squadrons operating across the the Channel in 1942 and early 1943 (Hurricane production was spoken for, either going to Russia or other theaters).
By the end of 1943 you had ONE squadron operating Hurricanes across the Channel.
You have a solution in search of problem here.

Tempests shot down 800+ V1s ???
I thought it was closer to 600 +
And had the Tempest not been there were there other aircraft that could do the Job?
after all almost 2/3rds of the V-1s destroyed by aircraft were destroyed by other types.

A lot fewer Merlins would have scattered over the Germany if the operations men had listened to a few of the boffins and had the planes cruise at max lean mixture instead of the low cruise speeds that were used on way too many missions.

Shortround6 · Jul 7, 2016

James W. said:
With the right supercharger, sure, the Tempest I prototype was doing 470+ mph at ~25,000 ft in early 1943..

Ah, once again we a subject to the performance figures for prototype aircraft using an engine that failed to make it into production.

Nice plane, good thing it can run because it sure can't fight. no guns.
Also used the Sabre IV engine which failed to go into production due to "problems". go figure.

BTW the F4U-5 could do 403mph at sea level and 470mph at 26,800ft. They built 397 of them.
Can we go back to WW II planes that actually entered production or had a fair shot at it instead of time traveling fantasy planes.

Shortround6 · Jul 7, 2016

James W. said:
Merlin Spits were used as fighter bombers post invasion, they could not pull the weight of a Typhoon either.

It took until the middle of 1944 for a Typhoon to pull the weight of a Typhoon.
Bigger solid tail wheels were fitted to the 1001st and later Typhoons to help handle the weight of bombs (and 500lbs bombs at that), New brakes were fitted to the main wheels. The 4 bladed prop was thought to such an advantage in trying to carry 1000lbs that up to 200 Typhoons were grounded waiting for new propeller sealing kits to come from the US rather than put the old 3 bladed props on and use them. new manufacture and refitting of older planes with Tempest tail-planes was also very desirable for carrying 1000lb bombs.

If the Sabre had been scrapped in 1941/42 other aircraft would have been built to fill the gap. The Typhoon and Tempest were not irreplaceable.

gjs238 · Jul 7, 2016

James W. said:
The RAF could have used its L-L P-47s in the Typhoon role, post-invasion, but it just wasn't as good..
None of the R-2800 powered fighters the British had on hand in mid `44 were fast enough to catch V1s..

So, I'd reckon those relatively few Sabres available sure did come in handy, huh..

Shortround6 said:
There were TWO, count 'em. TWO Hurricane fighter bomber squadrons operating in Europe in 1942. This is the reason the Whirlwind got a reprieve and was fitted with bomb racks. It doubles the number of fighter bomber squadrons operating across the the Channel in 1942 and early 1943 (Hurricane production was spoken for, either going to Russia or other theaters).
By the end of 1943 you had ONE squadron operating Hurricanes across the Channel.
You have a solution in search of problem here.

Tempests shot down 800+ V1s ???
I thought it was closer to 600 +
And had the Tempest not been there were there other aircraft that could do the Job?
after all almost 2/3rds of the V-1s destroyed by aircraft were destroyed by other types.

A lot fewer Merlins would have scattered over the Germany if the operations men had listened to a few of the boffins and had the planes cruise at max lean mixture instead of the low cruise speeds that were used on way too many missions.

Someone's numbers are off.

BLine22 · Jul 7, 2016

James W. said:
The RAF could have used its L-L P-47s in the Typhoon role, post-invasion, but it just wasn't as good..
None of the R-2800 powered fighters the British had on hand in mid `44 were fast enough to catch V1s..

So, I'd reckon those relatively few Sabres available sure did come in handy, huh..

Typhoon VS Thunderbolt, sounds like a new thread. Ill take the P-47 but I'm sure each one could and did fulfill the role more than satisfactorily.

Shortround6 · Jul 7, 2016

James W. said:
The RAF could have used its L-L P-47s in the Typhoon role, post-invasion, but it just wasn't as good..
None of the R-2800 powered fighters the British had on hand in mid `44 were fast enough to catch V1s..

So, I'd reckon those relatively few Sabres available sure did come in handy, huh..

Gee, I guess you got me. Of course the British actually had very few R-2800 powered fighters on hand in Mid 1944 did they? A large number of the R-2800 powered fighters being Corsairs or Hellcats. A lot of the British P-47s went to India/Burma.
Of course the Hundreds of British P-51s on hand would be totally useless for attacking V-1s right??
Or perhaps more Spitfire XIVs? English Electric builds Griffons instead of Sabres?

Shortround6 · Jul 7, 2016

James W. said:
No guns, you are being funny..

I have a picture of HM 599 with its Mk II H-S cannon projecting from the leading edge,
& wearing an earlier Typhoon car-door canopy.
Obviously it was updated to later Tempest spec, with the blown bubble & shorter Mk V cannon.

It was tested at that speed, so no fantasy is required, & AFAIR, no F4U-5's saw service in WW2, either..

Do you have a Picture of the HM 599 with cannon or a picture of the HM 599 with a mock up of cannon?

Like this?

What was the condition of the HM 599 during the speed run, like weight and were guns actually fitted or mocked up or absent.

Shortround6 · Jul 7, 2016

James W. said:
No indeed, the RAF really liked Mustangs, & even wanted more Allison powered units, they tried the Typhoon
as a replacement in the Mustang's FR role, but the vibration spoiled the photos..

Bit harder to shoot down V1's with 4 X 0.5" compared with 4 X 20mm though..

& if the Corsairs & Hellcats had been better at V1 hunting, the RAF would've purloined them quick-smart..

Purloined them from where? carriers at sea?

And you missed the point, there were other aircraft in existence that could do the job, perhaps not quite as well but the absence of the Tempests dos NOT mean that 600-800 more V-1 would have got through if 2-3 fighter groups using other planes had been assigned to do the same work.

Milosh · Jul 7, 2016

James W. said:
Sabre was, like ALL fighter piston aero-engines rapidly eclipsed by turbines, post war,
- but FYI Sabre Tempests remained in service with the RAF until the mid 1950s
since that 1,700 hp cruise/2,300 hp normal rating enabled realistic target training for jet-jockeys.

The last Griffon powered RAF a/c was retired in 1991.

GregP · Jul 8, 2016

Milosh, it isn't your post that is dumb. We may have had a few minor skirmishes, but you've NEVER been dumb.

FLYBOYJ · Jul 8, 2016

Our annoying friend will be dealt with. Those of you who messaged me, thanks for the heads up

fubar57 · Jul 8, 2016

Agreed Greg. He's handed out 99% of the "dumb" tags on the entire site

Thanks FBJ

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