wuzak
Captain
I believe the confusion was that the aircraft described was the Tempest I, which was fitted with the Sabre IV. Neither went into production.
Ad: This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. More information in Terms and rules
Fiat G-55/P-39&Tempest lV???
The Tempest Mk III and IV, both earmarked for installation of Rolls-Royce Griffon engines, diverged significantly from the Sabre engined Tempest program. Only the Mk III prototype (LA610) was actually converted (Mk IV prototype LA614 was cancelled in Feb 1943). The aircraft was test flown during September 1944 as a "lightweight" Tempest powered by a Griffon 85 engine. Later it was re-engined with the final version of the Sabre, the Mk VIII, which developed over 3000hp, and in this form it achieved 483mph making it the fastest of the Hawker piston-engined fighters. And that claim about being the fastest Mk of Tempest is dubious at best. Did the Mk lV even see combat?
Anyway, apologies for the derail - maybe we should resurrect the Battle of France thread and put that stuff in there.
Per the OP, here is my list:
...........
Yak-1, 1B, 7, 7B
The Yak series was one of the great fighters of WW2. Its performance was limited to low altitude and build quality was often poor especially in the most crucial war year of 1942. But as a design, this plane was one of the greats. It was fast, well streamlined, made largely of wood so cheap to manufacture, reasonably well armed (nose cannon plus a couple of MGs was sufficient for the excellent Bf 109F series so yeah, I think it's good armament) and extremely agile. By the end of 1942 as the manufacturing problems caused by evacuating most of the factories across the Urals were being worked out, this aircraft became an increasingly deadly menace to the Luftwaffe and probably bore the brunt of destroying German aircraft in that crucial tipping point of the war just after Stalingrad.
I think the Yak series, up to the 9 and the 3, are underrated because they are Russian, and people in the English speaking world and the "West" tend to dismiss their victory claims and all things Russian in general, unfairly I believe. Only the Yak 3 really gets respect because that was the plane the Germans said scared them. The Yak was a design tailored to the Theater and the circumstances, it was a low altitude fighter, it's main job was to shoot down Bf 109s and protect the Sturmoviks and Pe-2s, so it was armed appropriately. But it did the job and it's a beautiful looking aircraft to boot.
Pe-2
I've explained why I like this plane so much. Fast, accurate, versatile. yes it had some limitations and the death of the main designer in an accident probably helped prevent it from being further developed, but it was a very advanced design initially and did the damage the Soviets needed to do to the German war machine in the critical years of the war.
I think the Pe-2 is underrated again, because Russian. And because it didn't carry ten tons of bombs, but neither did the Stuka and look how important that was to the German war machine. Like the Stuka, the Pe-2 was a precision dive bomber, but unlike the Stuka it was fast and well armed with defensive guns. It is also a beautiful aircraft. It deserves more respect than it gets.
.............
S
I don't consider both above mentioned as underrated. They might be less known in English speaking world indeed, but only less known if compared to P-51 and B-17, etc. Early Yaks and Peshkas as mass produced types are mentioned in all serious publications related to Eastern Front. In Russian (Soviet and many post Soviet) works both belong to almost untouchable holy list of "sacred cows" along with IL-2.
Actually, in my humble opinion, I'd place whole Yak family in "over-rated" category. It was real workhorse, of course. Were they better than contenders? Did they deserve so much production capacity on the cost of other prospected types? Could Yaks production become first priority for the factories if A.Yakovlev was not Stalin's favourite and high rank bureaucrat - who (surprise surprise) had powers to allocate production lines and to approve or shut down other projects? I'm not sure.
Difference in perception exists at both sides, of course. Not as significant as 20-25 years ago, but still there.Well that's interesting Dimlee, but I would chalk that up to the difference in perception within the Russian-speaking world from the Anglophone.
In the Anglophone world the Yak, and any other Soviet types, are essentially given 'honorable mention' as in, these are the aircraft being shot down in droves by the Luftwaffe on the Russian Front. while in Aviation circles the top 20 experten are practically household names - who doesn't know who Gunther Rall or Erik Hartmann or Hans Joachim Marseilles were etc., as were the top 5 or 10 American and British / Commonwealth aces- Richard Bong, Pappy Boyington, Gabby Gabreski, Marmaduke Thomas Pattle, Clive Caldwell, Johnny Johnson and so on, and even the top Japanese aces like Nishizawa and Saburo Sakai and so forth. But precious few know who Kozhedub, Shestakov, or Rechkalov are - Pokrushkin is probably the only name widely known due to the curiosity that he flew P-39s.
The wikipedia article on WW2 Aces barely has any Russians on it, for that matter.
When they have top ten WW2 aircraft or fighters on History Channel the only Russian one you usually ever see is the Il2.
As for Yakovlevs political connections landing him contracts, well trust me that kind of thing happened in the West too, though granted we didn't have any major aircraft designed from prison. The contracts awarded to outfits like Fairey and Curtiss, the continued manufacture of of Hurricanes into 1944, debacles like the Helldiver, the Seamew, the Me 110 / 210 , He 177 and frankly the P-38 (which would go on my list of most overrated fighters) speaks to the effects of corruption and the abuse of political influence in every nation in WW2.
At least the Yaks could do the job. What would the alternative have been in 1941 and 1942? The I-153 and I-16 were obsolete, the LaGG-3 was inferior to the Yak 1 or Yak 7 (but were produced in large numbers anyway) the La 5 was produced I think as fast as possible once they became available in spite of some ongoing problems... the MiG 1 and MiG 3 were basically useless at low altitude.
What alternative were you thinking of?
S
As a child in the 60s it was difficult to be sympathetic to the Soviet Union when you see early warning stations on top of the moors and endless talk of "two minute warnings" and "what to do if we have a nuclear attack" on the TV.Stalin was frequently the USSR's worst enemy; his personal paranoia, seeing threats to his rule in every подстака́нник probably added months to the war. Now, I don't think a resurgent czarist regime would have behaved that much differently than did the soviet one -- reconquering territories removed by Brest-Litovsk would be just as much a czarist goal as a bolshevik one, although they'd cloak the reasons in different rhetoric --but a leader with a lesser tendency to imagine threats is likely to have done much better for the USSR or Russia.
Between the USSR's obsessive secrecy and Cold War politics, very little (positive and negative) about the Soviet contribution towards victory in Europe was in many history books in, at least, the US.
As a child in the 60s it was difficult to be sympathetic to the Soviet Union when you see early warning stations on top of the moors and endless talk of "two minute warnings" and "what to do if we have a nuclear attack" on the TV.
I think that's a matter of opinion and with respect maybe a little ignorance. From luftwaffe pilot reports i have seen the Yak 9 was very much respected. And if your talking about overrated aircraft then maybe we should add the P-51, which in all fairness was nothing more than a flying gastank. The Russians didn't think much of it either. Especially as many Mustang pilots who came into contact with Russian fighters attacked them without hesitation. Albeit miss identification, 2 P-51D's attacked a La -5. Long story short both mustangs were shot out of the sky.I don't consider both above mentioned as underrated. They might be less known in English speaking world indeed, but only less known if compared to P-51 and B-17, etc. Early Yaks and Peshkas as mass produced types are mentioned in all serious publications related to Eastern Front. In Russian (Soviet and many post Soviet) works both belong to almost untouchable holy list of "sacred cows" along with IL-2.
Actually, in my humble opinion, I'd place whole Yak family in "over-rated" category. It was real workhorse, of course. Were they better than contenders? Did they deserve so much production capacity on the cost of other prospected types? Could Yaks production become first priority for the factories if A.Yakovlev was not Stalin's favourite and high rank bureaucrat - who (surprise surprise) had powers to allocate production lines and to approve or shut down other projects? I'm not sure.
I think that's a matter of opinion and with respect maybe a little ignorance. From luftwaffe pilot reports i have seen the Yak 9 was very much respected. And if your talking about overrated aircraft then maybe we should add the P-51, which in all fairness was nothing more than a flying gastank. The Russians didn't think much of it either. Especially as many Mustang pilots who came into contact with Russian fighters attacked them without hesitation. Albeit miss identification, 2 P-51D's attacked a La -5. Long story short both mustangs were shot out of the sky.
He was the worst enemy of the people who found themselves under his rule, of course. But USSR was designed by him and his team and despite the catastrophe of 1941, they has achieved a lot in 1945. Half of the continent under Communist rule de facto, Red China emerging in the East and fantastic propaganda achievements which recruited many new spies and "useful idiots" in the West and has created strong sympathies in colonies all over the world. In this respect Stalin was the best friend of USSR as he brought it close to the peak of power and prepared foundation for further expansion (continued by Khruschev and Brezhenev yet in different manner). Just to clarify: I mean USSR as a state machine created and managed for one ultimate goal: world dominance.Stalin was frequently the USSR's worst enemy; his personal paranoia, seeing threats to his rule in every подстака́нник probably added months to the war. Now, I don't think a resurgent czarist regime would have behaved that much differently than did the soviet one -- reconquering territories removed by Brest-Litovsk would be just as much a czarist goal as a bolshevik one, although they'd cloak the reasons in different rhetoric --but a leader with a lesser tendency to imagine threats is likely to have done much better for the USSR or Russia.
...
I think that's a matter of opinion and with respect maybe a little ignorance. From luftwaffe pilot reports i have seen the Yak 9 was very much respected. And if your talking about overrated aircraft then maybe we should add the P-51, which in all fairness was nothing more than a flying gastank. The Russians didn't think much of it either. Especially as many Mustang pilots who came into contact with Russian fighters attacked them without hesitation. Albeit miss identification, 2 P-51D's attacked a La -5. Long story short both mustangs were shot out of the sky.
That is why V.M. Petlyakov was let out of prison when he designed the Pe-2.
Some "trivia"...
He was let out of prison but was neither paroled nor acquitted. So he remained the convict de-jure until his death.
For the record, I also think the reaction against the P-51 has gone a bit too far. It wasn't the be-all end-all but neither was it just a flying gas-tank. It was remarkably fast and caused tactical as well as operational problems for the Luftwaffe.
The most under rated would have to be the p40 in my opinion. Volumes have been written about how it was not a good long range escort fighter. Well that's not what it was designed for. It was designed to fill requirements for an aicraft to give support to and air cover for ground forces while oparating from short unimprooved runways. At this it excelled and I would argue was one of the best right up until the end of the war.
No, it was not designed for long range escort.
Nor was it designed for ground support.
It was designed as a pursuit type aeroplane, the goal of which was to intercept and destroy enemy aircraft, primarily bombers.
At that role it was shit, so it turned to ground pounding. As was common for fighters that had gone past their use by date.
I think he meant it was intended to intercept tactical bombers, like Stukas or Ju 88s, or Ki-21s, or G4Ms, or Val dive bombers, which it did do - shooting them down in droves, but it was in actual use forced into more of an air-supremacy, anti-fighter mission since the other available aircraft - Hawker Hurricanes, P-39s, F2A Buffaloes, P-35s, Gladiators and so forth weren't up to the task. This is why so many of the Zeros and Bf 109s shot down in 1942 were by P-40s, and so few by the other aircraft mentioned.
No, it was not designed for long range escort.
Nor was it designed for ground support.
It was designed as a pursuit type aeroplane, the goal of which was to intercept and destroy enemy aircraft, primarily bombers.
At that role it was shit, so it turned to ground pounding. As was common for fighters that had gone past their use by date.
I didn't say it was designed strictly for ground support. It was like all pre war army fighter types with the exception of the p38 designed primarily to give air cover to and secondarily direct support to ground forces over tfhe battle field as that was the envisioned purpose of army fighter air craft at the time. Army airforce doctrine at the time was that the bomber would always get through. Nobody, or at least verry few invisioned the need for long range escort fighters.No, it was not designed for long range escort.
Nor was it designed for ground support.
It was designed as a pursuit type aeroplane, the goal of which was to intercept and destroy enemy aircraft, primarily bombers.
At that role it was shit, so it turned to ground pounding. As was common for fighters that had gone past their use by date.