Hardlydank
Airman 1st Class
Well, it's more multipurpose since it has defensive armament and can carry bombs. Also it looks cooler
Most Useful Plane Not Produced
- Thread starter kitplane01
- Start date
Ad: This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. More information in Terms and rules
Enter Fw 187 into the search function of this site and you'll find all manner of discussion about it.
In short, it was a very well performing twin engined fighter and could match single engined fighters in outright performance at the time it was built, but it did not receive a production order. People believe it should have been chosen instead of the Bf 110 as a Zerstorer, but it was only a single-seater and although there were plans to do a two-seater, it never came to fruition. Just be careful though, there are lots of theories about unbuilt variants and their exaggerated performance based solely on estimated figures. Why it wasn't put into production was simple, the LW had no use for it at the time, whether or not this was a bad decision is up to the beholder. Nevertheless, it was an excellent aircraft with considerable potential.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
The Fw187 was designed around the DB600, which at the time, was in short supply (actually, when was any Luftwaffe engine NOT in short supply?), so the early Fw187 had to use the Jumo engines, hampering it's performance, which of course did not impress the RLM.
The Fw187 was originally conceived and designed as a single-seat fighter. It was later versions that saw it (typically) considered for competing with the Bf110, bombing, dive-bombing, night-fighter, etc.
The Fw187 was originally conceived and designed as a single-seat fighter. It was later versions that saw it (typically) considered for competing with the Bf110, bombing, dive-bombing, night-fighter, etc.
Admiral Beez
Major
The Russians put bombs on their knock-off DC-3, the Lisunov Li-2. But anyway, full agreement on the Harrow. If the Brits want a homemade transport that's not a flying boat the Harrow is the one.Well, it's more multipurpose since it has defensive armament and can carry bombs. Also it looks cooler
Just look at this thing; it's just ideal for rough field ops and neglect throughout the Empire.
Conslaw
Senior Airman
If we stay in WWII for this discussion, I think the most important aircraft that wasn't produced was the Lockheed L-133. The reason doesn't have so much to do with the plane itself, which surely would have had some hiccups in its development, rather, the reason is that it would have forced the United States aeronautics industry to climb the experience curve in jet propulsion much sooner and much faster.
My other candidate for most useful aircraft not produced was an airborne tanker version of the B-24. According to History of Air to Air Refueling, by Richard M. Tanner, in 1943 there was a successful experiment involving a modified version of the B-24 to refuel a B-17 in the air. The British conducted similar tests using the Lancaster. It surprises me that there were no efforts to refuel the B-29 in the air until the war was over. Maybe they felt that the limiting factor on the B-29 was not the endurance of the plane, but the endurance of the crew.
My other candidate for most useful aircraft not produced was an airborne tanker version of the B-24. According to History of Air to Air Refueling, by Richard M. Tanner, in 1943 there was a successful experiment involving a modified version of the B-24 to refuel a B-17 in the air. The British conducted similar tests using the Lancaster. It surprises me that there were no efforts to refuel the B-29 in the air until the war was over. Maybe they felt that the limiting factor on the B-29 was not the endurance of the plane, but the endurance of the crew.
Last edited:
Yup, that they did, but it was no lash-up arrangement; not all the PS-84s were transports with bomb racks, although some were - the Li-2VP was specifically built as a bomber with external and internal bomb racks, bomb airmer's station and a gun turret. That doesn't mean it was effective, but, like the Ju 52/3m when it first entered LW service, few are aware that it was designed as a bomber transport on introduction and the first unit to use them was a bomber transport unit.
I was gonna say Boeing Sea Ranger, but that may have come after 1943.
Funny you should mention the IFR B-24, as in 1944 the British plan for what the RAF called the Tiger Force included B-24 tankers to refuel Lancasters and Lincolns engaged in attacks against the Japanese home islands. Once the war in Europe was over, the RAF planned that Tiger Force would head to the Far East to support the USAAF in its bombing raids on Japan, but by August 1945, Tiger Force was very different to how it was initially planned - IFR had not been introduced into RAF service at that time, despite trials having been carried out.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
And the Ju52/3m was indeed used as a bomber during the Spanish Civil war.
It was once again thrown into the breech as a bomber on the eastern front on a few occasions.
Here's a photo of the Ju52 in action in Spain.
Propellorhead
Airman 1st Class
IN 1943 after Munich was bombed Hitler ordered production of the Heinkel He277 with an intention to bomb England day by day or night. To accomplish this, the bomber had to fly higher than British fighters could intercept it.
On 19 November 1938 whilst ordering the first prototype He-177A Reichs Luft Ministerium (RLM) suggested to Designer Ernst Heinkel that he also develop four prototype aircraft with a conventional engine lay-out just in case the paired DB 603 engine concept failed. RLM designated these as the He-177B. It was proposed by RLM that four prototype He-177B aircraft be fitted with 986hp Jumo 211 engines individually housed in their own nacelles.. These JUMO 211 engines were too advanced for mass production with problematic cooling, but Heinkel already knew the performance he could expect with DB603 engines It could bomb from skies above England at 49,210ft altitude. untouched by British fighters. IT could have seriously impeded the war effort even as late as 1944, preventing, build up for the Normandy invasion.
HE277B production version model
In May 1943 an order was placed for 1,900hp DB 603G engines to equip four pre-production He-177H aircraft originally built, or converted at Rostock Marienehe. These aircraft likely became the V101, V102, v103 and V104 prototypes for the He-277. DB 603G. Production however was cancelled in April 1944. for political reasons.
He-277 Specifications (powered by four DB603A engines):
Fuel Capacity 16,950 L / 8.97hrs
Maximum Fuel weight 21,186kg
Bomb Load with Max Fuel 7,084kg
Fuel Consumption @combat power 2996lb/hr / 1,889L/hr
Cruise speed 248kts
Max speed 307kts@
Service ceiling49,210 feet
MTOW 60,000kg
OEW31,730kg
Useful Load 28,270kg
Heinkel werke sud at Schwechat, Vienna was bombed twice in 1944. The first time on 23 April 1944 caused some damage to the assembly shop, two workshops and hangers. The result of this raid was inconclusive. Tooling may have been evacuated E-Stelle 2 Reichlin after this first bombing raid. Up to sixteen pre-production He-277 airframes appear to have beenoperating or evaluated on strength or completed at Reichlin's manufacturing workshops. At least 16 stkz identities were registered against airframe construction numbers.
The second raid at Schwechat of 26 June 1944 was more severe. It damaged four hangers, main assembly shops, a large workshop, an office block and barracks. Also destroyed were two of the He-277 prototypes. He-277 production was cancelled by the Emergency Fighter Program on 3 July 1944. Reichlin was not bombed until August 1944, by which time all He-277 production had ceased
In the Heinkel Uhu nightfighter, the 1,900hp DB 603G was substituted with the 1,800hp DB 603E. Some sources suggest this was an option fitted to the He-277, whilst other sources refer to the 1,900hp Jumo 213F. Testing of an He 277 prototype with an "H"style tail at Schwechat near Vienna solved directional stability issues and proved the desirability of a new tail empennage for subsequent He-277 aircraft.
On 19 November 1938 whilst ordering the first prototype He-177A Reichs Luft Ministerium (RLM) suggested to Designer Ernst Heinkel that he also develop four prototype aircraft with a conventional engine lay-out just in case the paired DB 603 engine concept failed. RLM designated these as the He-177B. It was proposed by RLM that four prototype He-177B aircraft be fitted with 986hp Jumo 211 engines individually housed in their own nacelles.. These JUMO 211 engines were too advanced for mass production with problematic cooling, but Heinkel already knew the performance he could expect with DB603 engines It could bomb from skies above England at 49,210ft altitude. untouched by British fighters. IT could have seriously impeded the war effort even as late as 1944, preventing, build up for the Normandy invasion.
HE277B production version model
In May 1943 an order was placed for 1,900hp DB 603G engines to equip four pre-production He-177H aircraft originally built, or converted at Rostock Marienehe. These aircraft likely became the V101, V102, v103 and V104 prototypes for the He-277. DB 603G. Production however was cancelled in April 1944. for political reasons.
He-277 Specifications (powered by four DB603A engines):
Fuel Capacity 16,950 L / 8.97hrs
Maximum Fuel weight 21,186kg
Bomb Load with Max Fuel 7,084kg
Fuel Consumption @combat power 2996lb/hr / 1,889L/hr
Cruise speed 248kts
Max speed 307kts@
Service ceiling49,210 feet
MTOW 60,000kg
OEW31,730kg
Useful Load 28,270kg
Heinkel werke sud at Schwechat, Vienna was bombed twice in 1944. The first time on 23 April 1944 caused some damage to the assembly shop, two workshops and hangers. The result of this raid was inconclusive. Tooling may have been evacuated E-Stelle 2 Reichlin after this first bombing raid. Up to sixteen pre-production He-277 airframes appear to have beenoperating or evaluated on strength or completed at Reichlin's manufacturing workshops. At least 16 stkz identities were registered against airframe construction numbers.
The second raid at Schwechat of 26 June 1944 was more severe. It damaged four hangers, main assembly shops, a large workshop, an office block and barracks. Also destroyed were two of the He-277 prototypes. He-277 production was cancelled by the Emergency Fighter Program on 3 July 1944. Reichlin was not bombed until August 1944, by which time all He-277 production had ceased
In the Heinkel Uhu nightfighter, the 1,900hp DB 603G was substituted with the 1,800hp DB 603E. Some sources suggest this was an option fitted to the He-277, whilst other sources refer to the 1,900hp Jumo 213F. Testing of an He 277 prototype with an "H"style tail at Schwechat near Vienna solved directional stability issues and proved the desirability of a new tail empennage for subsequent He-277 aircraft.
Agree. And since the first flight was in October we can assume that the prototype itself was ready or almost ready in the summer.
And there lies the crunch, instead of putting all their effort into one design with growth potential the British decided to have an underdeveloped war winner and an obsolete crate. It was done for good reason but it doesn't hide the fact that he most useful plane not produced was the Spitfire MkIII in 1941 and the corresponding loss of it's development path.
But it wasn't "lost" the Mk III airframe was used for the development of the Mk IX starting in Sept 1941.
The Mk IX was an interim model based on the interim Mk V, the Mk III was a wholly different development path that incorporated all the lessons learned from the BoB which birthed the Mk VIII with more internal fuel, retractable tail wheel, cut down wings increasing rate of roll, two speed super charger giving more range speed and performance.
We can recall that Spitfire Vs were re-engined with Merlin 60 series of engines, that were much longer & heavier than Merlin XX, let alone than Merlin 45, and required intercooler system.
Not all production lines making Spitfires must switch to the Mk.III. And after all, the bottleneck in production was mostly the wing, that required in-proportional manhours to make.
Germans lost BoB due to many things, that mostly stemmed from them under-estimating British resolve and capacity to mass produce aircraft. Germans also invested way too much in Bf 110 production; each Bf 110 produced = two Bf 109s not produced.
Fw 190 was a great fighter. But for better or worse, it was too late when it mattered - for the BoB. Let's recall that Focke Wulf was also maiking Bf 110s under licence.
The Luftwaffe day-fighter force consisting just of Bf 109, Daimlerized Fw 187, and then jets would've been a tough opponent to the allies.
Although - I'd go with just Bf 109s and jets (unless the Fw 190 is designed around a V12 engine from the day one, so it can take over from Bf 109 until there is not enough of jets).
(my bold)
Already in 1940...
The 2-speed supercharger != 2-stage supercharger. The Merlin 60, 70 and 80 series engines were with 2-speed, 2-stage superchargers. Merlin 20 series were with 2-speed, 1-stage superchargers (similar with many other engines of the day).
There were also: a 3-speed, 2-stage superchargers (on Jumo 213E and F); a variable-speed, 1-stage superchargers (DB 601/603/605 series in most of versions); a variable-speed, 2-stage S/Cs (DB 603L, 605L) etc. American engines used a more varied approach, like the 1-speed engine-stage S/C on the V-1710, that have had another S/C stage featuring variable speed (in their 2-stage supercharged versions). Or the versions of the R-1830 and R-2800 that could ce-couple auxiliary S/C stage at low altitudes.
Last edited:
How could plane that weighed as much as a B-29, has a smaller wing than a B29, less hp at any altitude and no turbochargers have a ceiling that is 18,000 feet higher than a B-29?
RW Mk. III
Airman 1st Class
It doesn't specify payload. Maybe they were going to use harsh language? Hard to hear from 9 miles up though...
swampyankee
Chief Master Sergeant
- 4,028
- Jun 25, 2013
Heinkel's head office lying, perhaps?
