Most valuable Carrier Fighter Of WWII

[Elvis]

Elvis,
If you look closer at the complete report you will see that the Scout version
is posted using NORMAL power which would be 900 hp. at 13,800 ft. The
scout version of the SBD-5 was fully capable of using military power at that
altitude, 1,000 hp. If you look closely at the speed curves on the graph, which
I have very carefully calculated, you will understand the true maximum speed
of the SBD-5 scout was over 260 mph using military power. The Ferry version's
260 mph. was at normal power.

I looked over that whole page and the other SBD-5 page listed at that site.
The only reference to the 260 mph speed you mentioned was for the plane in "Ferry mode", as listed at the link I posted.
Where did you find this other info?
I did not see it.


Elvis

 

[Doug Fairall]

Hi all. I would like to add something that has been a part of my whole life. The Bismark story was me. I read every story, watched every movie. Now what if that one Fairey Swordfish from the Arc Royal had not damaged her steering gear so that the Allied force could finish her off. The Bismark story could have been a lot longer with so much more loss of life. I love that plane.

 

[parsifal]

I am a massive fan of the Swordfish and believe it to be the most valuable carrier based strike aircraft of the war. but conjecturing what might have happened had the bismark escaped........a redoubled an intensified effort to contain her in Brest, repeated BC strikes on the port of Brest, massive minelaying efforts. Formation of hunter killer groups in case she got lucky and broke out again.

bismark was a marked ship and wasn't going anywhere after her first foray. She may well have joined the two BCs in their retreat that looked like a victory at the end of the year. She may have survived the attentions of BC that knocked the Gneisenau out of the war later in the month. She may have escaped again to the far north, and escaped the attentions of the carrier strikes directed against her sister the Tirpitz. She may have survived Hitlers insane orders to scrap the capital ships after the disasters in the Barents sea in December. She may have survived the X-craft attacks that crippled her sister for 6 months in 1943 with more or less the same damage. She may have escaped the further attentions of the Home Fleet in april and July 1944 that saw yet more damage and more effort lavished on the pointless repair of her sister. and finally, she may have survived Heavy bomber attacks that destroyed her sister.

But how likely is it that she would survive all this? And for what? So that DKM could maintain a "fleet in being" with even less fuel allocations and even more "useless mouths" to feed, clothe and pay whilst doing nothing and achieving nothing except give the british a reason to keep their battleships?.

 

[Kevin J]

, underpinning much of this argument is some basic arithmetic. Japan lost less than 35000 a/c to all causes to the western allies and about 5000 a/c to the Russians in the final days of the war. Within that 35000 are about 7000 captured after the ceasefire with the Americans, but still captured or destroyed because fighting was still occurring in other TOs that the western powers were not involved in. In total, the Japanese lots no more than 19000 a/c to operational causes, however more than half these were destroyed whilst on the ground, and a sizable chunk simply failed to return, presumed lost. Many were expended as Kamikazes and this usually meant unused Kamikazes simply dove into the sea.

Againt those cold facts, the US claims, even the corrected postwar ones are completely unreliable. They just don't add up. Cant add up.


At the end of the war the IJN submitted a memo to the compilers of the USSBS on known losses. it was disregarded, because the data that memo contained did not align with the claims data on which the USSBS eventually was based. And it is the USSBS on which much of the numbers being thrown around now as gospel are based. US members of this forum are unshakeable and immovable on this issue, no matter what level of disproving evidence is presented to them. ive done this so many times, before, its a waste of time to argue.

An example of the mathematical absurdity:

Warbirds and Airshows- WWII US Aircraft Victories

The figures that I have are 1267 fighter victories in the CBI and 12529 in the PTO, nothing for victories by non fighters or our Commonwealth forces. So they don't seem too implausible, although an over claimed ratio of 2 or 3 to 1 in the ETO or MTO wasn't unusual for both sides in the conflict. Also, if you have a damaged beyond repair aircraft on an airfield, surely the operators will leave them out as bait for attacking fighters?

 

[Kevin J]

I am a massive fan of the Swordfish and believe it to be the most valuable carrier based strike aircraft of the war. but conjecturing what might have happened had the bismark escaped........a redoubled an intensified effort to contain her in Brest, repeated BC strikes on the port of Brest, massive minelaying efforts. Formation of hunter killer groups in case she got lucky and broke out again.

bismark was a marked ship and wasn't going anywhere after her first foray. She may well have joined the two BCs in their retreat that looked like a victory at the end of the year. She may have survived the attentions of BC that knocked the Gneisenau out of the war later in the month. She may have escaped again to the far north, and escaped the attentions of the carrier strikes directed against her sister the Tirpitz. She may have survived Hitlers insane orders to scrap the capital ships after the disasters in the Barents sea in December. She may have survived the X-craft attacks that crippled her sister for 6 months in 1943 with more or less the same damage. She may have escaped the further attentions of the Home Fleet in april and July 1944 that saw yet more damage and more effort lavished on the pointless repair of her sister. and finally, she may have survived Heavy bomber attacks that destroyed her sister.

But how likely is it that she would survive all this? And for what? So that DKM could maintain a "fleet in being" with even less fuel allocations and even more "useless mouths" to feed, clothe and pay whilst doing nothing and achieving nothing except give the british a reason to keep their battleships?.

Everyone seems to have forgotten that only the Swordfish could carry the rather bulky ASW radars that were introduced in 1943, FAA Avengers being initially used for visual ASW only. More compact radars arrived later that could be fitted to Avengers, Barracudas and Fireflies. Without the defeat of the U-Boat menace in 1943 there would have been no Normandy invasion in 1944. Also lets not forget the FAA Wildcat that had better deck landing characteristics than the Swordfish, and these Wildcats could and did carry rockets under their wings. Our Swordfish couldn't carry both the radar and the rockets, it was an either / or situation. For the Wildcats, you just removed some of the guns so that you could carry some rockets.

 

[Peter Gunn]

, underpinning much of this argument is some basic arithmetic. Japan lost less than 35000 a/c to all causes to the western allies and about 5000 a/c to the Russians in the final days of the war. Within that 35000 are about 7000 captured after the ceasefire with the Americans, but still captured or destroyed because fighting was still occurring in other TOs that the western powers were not involved in. In total, the Japanese lots no more than 19000 a/c to operational causes, however more than half these were destroyed whilst on the ground, and a sizable chunk simply failed to return, presumed lost. Many were expended as Kamikazes and this usually meant unused Kamikazes simply dove into the sea.

Againt those cold facts, the US claims, even the corrected postwar ones are completely unreliable. They just don't add up. Cant add up.


At the end of the war the IJN submitted a memo to the compilers of the USSBS on known losses. it was disregarded, because the data that memo contained did not align with the claims data on which the USSBS eventually was based. And it is the USSBS on which much of the numbers being thrown around now as gospel are based. US members of this forum are unshakeable and immovable on this issue, no matter what level of disproving evidence is presented to them. ive done this so many times, before, its a waste of time to argue.

An example of the mathematical absurdity:

Warbirds and Airshows- WWII US Aircraft Victories

Hi Parsifal,

I'm a little hazy on what you're saying about the link you included, are you saying those are inflated figures?

Adding them up I get 12,666 claims for the PTO and 1,504 for CBI for total of 14,170 so is that too many? Citing Japanese losses of 19,000 a/c I'm somewhat confused (not an unnatural state for me). Are you saying there were less than half of the 19,000 were air to air? Or even less than that?

Not being argumentative just trying to understand the situation, my knowledge of the Pacific war is pretty good but not on the subject at hand and would like to learn more.

I have my own theory about the air war over the Pacific so would like some reliable numbers to test it against.

Thanks.

 

[Shortround6]

There may be a discrepancy between aircraft "shot down" and aircraft destroyed/damaged on the ground. The Japanese lost a lot of planes to airfield attacks.

Somebody with more knowledge than I have may be able to shed more light on this.

 

[BiffF15]

There may be a discrepancy between aircraft "shot down" and aircraft destroyed/damaged on the ground. The Japanese lost a lot of planes to airfield attacks.
View attachment 509587
View attachment 509588
View attachment 509589

Somebody with more knowledge than I have may be able to shed more light on this.

SR6,

Is that a crewman climbing into the cockpit of the middle picture? If so his day is getting/ got worse in short order.

Cheers,
Biff

 

[pinsog]

SR6,

Is that a crewman climbing into the cockpit of the middle picture? If so his day is getting/ got worse in short order.

Cheers,
Biff

Wow. Great spot Biff. I think everyone missed that. I would say that was terrible timing on his part. How is he not running in terror for the nearest ditch or tree line???

 

[michael rauls]

Wow. Great spot Biff. I think everyone missed that. I would say that was terrible timing on his part. How is he not running in terror for the nearest ditch or tree line???

He probably doesn't see it coming which at that point is probably for the best.
And ya great eye Biff I totally missed that also.

 

[michael rauls]

There may be a discrepancy between aircraft "shot down" and aircraft destroyed/damaged on the ground. The Japanese lost a lot of planes to airfield attacks.
View attachment 509587
View attachment 509588
View attachment 509589

Somebody with more knowledge than I have may be able to shed more light on this.

Those are some of the most incredible pics I have ever seen.

 

[GrauGeist]

Not sure why there's a person climbing into the cockpit of the KI-21-II, as it looks like it's out of service.

Note the starboard engine has been removed and the tailcone is gone.

Perhaps they were going to try and man the upper turret?

 

[CORSNING]

SR6,

Is that a crewman climbing into the cockpit of the middle picture? If so his day is getting/ got worse in short order.

Cheers,
Biff

Gentlemen, I give you the eagle eye of an US military fighter pilot.

 

[pinsog]

Not sure why there's a person climbing into the cockpit of the KI-21-II, as it looks like it's out of service.

Note the starboard engine has been removed and the tailcone is gone.

Perhaps they were going to try and man the upper turret?

View attachment 509599

You are correct that 1 engine is missing, but it appears to me that he is in full flight gear. Perhaps he is preparing to take off and he didn't notice the missing engine during his rather rushed preflight inspection?

 

[michael rauls]

You are correct that 1 engine is missing, but it appears to me that he is in full flight gear. Perhaps he is preparing to take off and he didn't notice the missing engine during his rather rushed preflight inspection?

Or he's retrieving his lucky charm he left in there on a previous mission.

 

[fastmongrel]

Our Swordfish couldn't carry both the radar and the rockets, it was an either / or situation.

Swordfish could carry Rockets and early ASV mkIII. I know its a picture of a model but it was the clearest I could find. On the outer forward inter wing struts there were Yagi aerials (TV type aerials)

A bit blurry but this shows the Yagi aerials

 

[fastmongrel]

Not sure why there's a person climbing into the cockpit of the KI-21-II, as it looks like it's out of service.

Note the starboard engine has been removed and the tailcone is gone.

Perhaps they were going to try and man the upper turret?

View attachment 509599

I cant see anyone climbing into the cockpit. What looks like the head is part of the windscreen in my eyes.

 

[GrauGeist]

Even in a chaotic scramble, the ground crew would be needed to get the ship squared away to get up.

This Sally is not only missing it's engine and several other components, it's also covered in camouflaging that needs to be removed.

My only guess is one that I stated earlier, he's climbing aboard to man the upper turret.

I cant see anyone climbing into the cockpit. What looks like the head is part of the windscreen in my eyes.

Here's a zoom. You can see him just about to climb into the cockpit and he's wearing what appears to be flight gear for moderate to upper altitudes.

 

[CORSNING]

I looked over that whole page and the other SBD-5 page listed at that site.
The only reference to the 260 mph speed you mentioned was for the plane in "Ferry mode", as listed at the link I posted.
Where did you find this other info?
I did not see it.
Elvis

Hi Elvis,
Look pages 1 and 2 over closely. Figures are given for 8 different loadouts or
performance settings. Slowly now, line eight gives the ENGINE POWER USED
FOR PERFORMANCE. Column 1 is the only column using MILITARY power. All
the rest are using NORMAL power. True, column 6 depicting the SCOUT's top
speed is 255 mph. at 15,700 ft., however that is at NORMAL power. Well, it just
seems to me that if the scout SBD was attacked it would quickly kick into military
power. (Screw that, I'd kick it into warp drive). That would put its FULL THROTTLE
HEIGHT to 13,800 ft. Now look at the graph depicting speeds. 1 and 2 performance
speed graphs show the bomber carrying a 1000 lbs. bomb using military (column 1)
and normal (column 2). Their speed difference at full throttle military power height
is 12 mph. For 6 on the graph at normal power its speed is 251 mph. I was being
very conservative at 260 mph. for military rating for the scout.

 

[CORSNING]

Swordfish and Dauntless, two aircraft that definitely had
God on their side. They both did amazing feats for the
performance they had.