Most valuable Carrier Fighter Of WWII

[parsifal]

There is also the issue of where. British carriers are usually decried for having too small airgroups in European operations. The air group capacities of the pacific/temperate navies are often held up as proof of the weaknesses of British carrier design. British carriers favoured increased defences (like armoured decking and closed hangars), and this penalized the air group capacity to the tune of 50 or so a/c, so the argument runs. Partly true, but mostly untrue. The opinion fails to include in its consideration that in the Pacific, there was an almost universal practice of having 50% of aircraft in permanent deckparks. This was not, and mostly, could not be considered in European waters. Once British carriers arrived in the Pacific they too had 50% deck parks, and HMS Indomitable for instance, with a hangar area 85% of that of USS Yorktown, operated 72 aircraft in the Pacific compared to the Yorktown's 80 odd. The Illustrious could operate nearly 60 aircraft in the pacific, to the usual air group of 40 in the ETO. Which means that British carriers could have operated bigger air groups in Europe, if anyone had considered that wise. No one did.


It possibly explains why DKM in its projections for a carrier the size of an Essex class CV, only projected a CAG the same size as the illustrious. Illustrious, however was only 67% GZs final displacement

 

[Shortround6]

Not all deck parks are created equal.

Granted this was an escort carrier.

Deck handling was sometimes slower than the book called for.

Carrier off Korea

Parsifal is correct, sometimes you need a hanger and not a deck park.

 

[parsifal]

Why German AA at sea was a failure
(At least on the Bismarck)


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTO3JagV8gE


The story of the GZ failure....as seen from the german POV


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fC6bqeOkzjQ

 

[GrauGeist]

True, but Hitler had one Strasser killed and a second managed to barely escape when he decided that National Socialist Party of the German Workers was too long a name and got rid of the Socialist part, might not want to remind people of that.

Breyer does mention that the name was pure speculation.

Kapitan zur See (Captain) Peter Strasser, for whom carrier "B" was to be named, was the Fuhrer der LuftSchiffe for Imperial Germany's Airship division (Marine LuftSchiffe Abteilung) during WWI.
Under his direction, Germany's airships became a vital weapon during WWI and he was an advocate of long-range bombing.

 

[parsifal]

I'm sure that some of you would already have seen this book. it really is the go to source for a discussion on AA effectiveness

Naval Anti-Aircraft Guns and Gunnery

 

[Shortround6]

I would note that for the German 20mm AA guns that there may be a mistake in some of the published accounts. Older sources seem to make no mention of a 40 round magazine while more modern ones do. A quick search of the internet comes up with no pictures of a 40 round magazine. This may not prove anything on it's own. Numerous pictures of a "transit" or transportation box can be found however that housed two 20 round magazines. Confused translation?
40 round box magazine would be rather large and should be noticeable in any photo showing that area of the gun/s.

One also wonders about the spring needed to feed 40 rounds and the effect of trying to strip the first few rounds out of the magazine.

 

[Madelman]

Poll closed

I would vote for the F4F for her contribution in the dark times, it was decisive to fight the IJN in 41-42.

Special mention to the Fairey Fulmar for the similar reasons in the MTO.

Curious about the combat performance of the Fairey Firefly at the end of the war

 

[parsifal]

F6F is the winner, by a mile. From the perspectives of technological excellence, numbers and just plain effectiveness it is deserving to win

 

[Kevin J]

Poll closed

I would vote for the F4F for her contribution in the dark times, it was decisive to fight the IJN in 41-42.

Special mention to the Fairey Fulmar for the similar reasons in the MTO.

Curious about the combat performance of the Fairey Firefly at the end of the war

The performance of the Firefly F1 series was no better than a F4F-4/5 although it was all weather, could do recce and night fighting. Pretty good rocketeer or fighter bomber. Superior to the Wildcat in those respects. The F4/5 series had a performance equivalent to the Hellcat, but they did serve until post-war.

 

[wlewisiii]

Missed the poll would vote for the SDB for it's important contributions in the early Pacific war.

 

[buffnut453]

Missed the poll would vote for the SDB for it's important contributions in the early Pacific war.

Errr...that's not a carrier fighter.

 

[Kevin J]

Errr...that's not a carrier fighter.

The SBD was a Scout fighter as well as a dive bomber. The FAA had the Skua in a slightly earlier time frame. They're from the end of an era when primitive navigational aids meant that having a two seat aircraft ensured your fighter returned safely to base in foul weather. Lots of Lightnings were lost in the Aleutian Campaign after failing to return in bad weather. The British contemporary of the Lightning is of course the Beaufighter which was built as a twin with a navigator.

 

[buffnut453]

The SBD was a Scout fighter as well as a dive bomber. The FAA had the Skua in a slightly earlier time frame. They're from the end of an era when primitive navigational aids meant that having a two seat aircraft ensured your fighter returned safely to base in foul weather. Lots of Lightnings were lost in the Aleutian Campaign after failing to return in bad weather. The British contemporary of the Lightning is of course the Beaufighter which was built as a twin with a navigator.

Sorry but SBD stands for "Scout Bomber Douglas". Scouting is not acting as a fighter, it's a scout...otherwise, why would the USN make a distinction between VS and VF squadrons?

 

[michael rauls]

The SBD was a Scout fighter as well as a dive bomber. The FAA had the Skua in a slightly earlier time frame. They're from the end of an era when primitive navigational aids meant that having a two seat aircraft ensured your fighter returned safely to base in foul weather. Lots of Lightnings were lost in the Aleutian Campaign after failing to return in bad weather. The British contemporary of the Lightning is of course the Beaufighter which was built as a twin with a navigator.

I think there's kind of a grey area here. The SBD( my favorite plane by the way) as I understand was pressed into service as a fighter on quite a few occasions and even as an interceptor( as unlikely as that sounds) a few times but wasn't intended for the fighter role. So I don't know if it would qualify as a carrier fighter for the purposes of this pole or not.
It would surely be a good pick as a valuable carrier plane in general though as in my opinion at least, it had more to do with the defeat of the IJN than any other plane save maybe the Hellcat.........maybe.

 

[buffnut453]

Being pressed into a fighter role is different from having that role built-in from the beginning. Bear in mind the first SBDs only had 2 30cal machine guns in the nose which is half the armament of the Skua. Hardly the kind of gun fit that one would associate with even a second-line fighter in late 1940/early 1941 when the SBD entered service (that's 2 years after the Skua).

SBD was absolutely vital to the successes of the Pacific Campaign but it's not a fighter and doesn't belong in this line-up (IMHO)

 

[GrauGeist]

Earlier in the thread, I provided an honorable mention for the SBD because it has the highest kill ratio of any dive-bomber made.

However, it is not a fighter and was not designed to be a fighter. It's primary mission was dive-bombing with scouting as a secondary role.

The fact that it was well-built with excellent performance for an aircraft of it's time, coupled with a determined and savvy pilot did make it very capable of standing it's ground when challenged.

But in the end, it was still a dive-bomber.

 

[parsifal]

I should creat another thread I think....most valuable carrier based strike aircraft......

 

[michael rauls]

I should creat another thread I think....most valuable carrier based strike aircraft......

Sounds good. You know where my vote is going to go.

 

[michael rauls]

Earlier in the thread, I provided an honorable mention for the SBD because it has the highest kill ratio of any dive-bomber made.

However, it is not a fighter and was not designed to be a fighter. It's primary mission was dive-bombing with scouting as a secondary role.

The fact that it was well-built with excellent performance for an aircraft of it's time, coupled with a determined and savvy pilot did make it very capable of standing it's ground when challenged.

But in the end, it was still a dive-bomber.

That's pretty much what I was trying to say but was also trying to conceded that I could understand how Kevin might want to include the SBD in the pole even though it was not a fighter.

 

[GrauGeist]

That's pretty much what I was trying to say but was also trying to conceded that I could understand how Kevin might want to include the SBD in the pole even though it was not a fighter.

Considering that the SBD accounted for 138 kills during it's time in the PTO, that's quite an impressive feat beyond several other dedicated fighter types in the Pacific theater.

The fact that the SBD actually squared off against the A6M on many occasions and bested it, is even more noteworthy.

However, the poll specified fighter and the SBD is disqualified due to the fact that it was acting as a fighter "pro-tem", which is beyond it's mission profile.

For example: a Bv222 encountered a PB4Y, attacked it and shot it down but this does not make the Bv222 a fighter by any stretch of the imagination.