Most valuable Carrier Fighter Of WWII

[michael rauls]

Considering that the SBD accounted for 138 kills during it's time in the PTO, that's quite an impressive feat beyond several other dedicated fighter types in the Pacific theater.

The fact that the SBD actually squared off against the A6M on many occasions and bested it, is even more noteworthy.

However, the poll specified fighter and the SBD is disqualified due to the fact that it was acting as a fighter "pro-tem", which is beyond it's mission profile.

For example: a Bv222 encountered a PB4Y, attacked it and shot it down but this does not make the Bv222 a fighter by any stretch of the imagination.

Agreed.

 

[Barrett]

I adore SBDs (two histories, a novel and restored/flew one) but do not believe the 138 victories. Have looked for an air-air loss figure but still ain't found it. However, the fact that it survived the worst year of the war in good shape says a lot, especially in context of Vals when our VF snacked on 'em.

 

[GrauGeist]

I adore SBDs (two histories, a novel and restored/flew one) but do not believe the 138 victories. Have looked for an air-air loss figure but still ain't found it. However, the fact that it survived the worst year of the war in good shape says a lot, especially in context of Vals when our VF snacked on 'em.

The SBD operated in a target rich environment at a time when the USN was struggling for survival, the 138 has been authenticated from several sources and I understand it's on the conservative side, too.

These victories would have not only have been accrued while on attack sorties, but also on armed recon and fleet CAP duties.

The 138 pales when compared to the F6F's 5,000+, of course, but if we go back to the valiant defense of the Lexington at the Battle of Coral Sea as an example, Ens. Leppla and his gunner had accounted for 7 Japanese victories that day.

 

[Shortround6]

The SBD was great plane and a valuable asset to the forces that used it.

However claiming it was a substitute fighter plane of any great ability is pushing things. Until you get to the SBD-5 you don't even have the engine used in the F2A-3 Brewster Buffalo. SBD-3 & 4s used an engine good for 1000hp for take-off and 800hp over 11,000ft in high supercharger gear. You have a plane with about 25% bigger wing than a Wildcat and that weighs around 1000lbs more than a Wildcat (depending on fuel load and other items? if no rear gunner you need to carry ballast) Now maybe (depending on load) you can out turn a Wildcat (briefly) but you can't out run one, you can't outclimb one. You may not be able to out dive one.

I know they were used as fighters at times (or anti-torpedo bomber planes which may not be quite the same thing) but the chances of the SBD against actual fighters flown by equal pilots and without some sort of advantage (height, cloud, fighter/s are concentrating on another target) are pretty slim.

 

[GrauGeist]

Regardless of their shortcomings, the SBD proved itself against the Japanese.
Lt. "Swede" Vejtesa and Ens. Leffla stand out the tallest among the SBD pilots and special mention goes to AO2C Jones, who nearly killed Saburo Sakai, too.

Another SBD pilot, Lt. Cleland attacked a G4M near Mili atoll. As he commenced his attack, his foreward MG froze but not before setting the bomber's port engine on fire. He then decided to pull alongside so his gunner, RO Hisler could work them over with his twin .30s, but aggressive defensive fire made Cleland decide to get ahead of the bomber. As the SBD cleared the G4M, Hisler opened up, sweeping the cockpit and the bomber nosed down into the sea.

Again, none of this is indicating that the Dauntless was a fighter. It wasn't. In the right hands, it could stand it's ground and make a showing of itself above and beyond it's intended mission profile.

So it boils down to being the right machine in the right place at the right time.

 

[Elvis]

Interesting how it has a very storied career as the SBD, but I hardly ever hear anything about the A-24....maybe the Army just didn't implement it as much as the Navy did?

Elvis

 

[michael rauls]

The SBD was great plane and a valuable asset to the forces that used it.

However claiming it was a substitute fighter plane of any great ability is pushing things. Until you get to the SBD-5 you don't even have the engine used in the F2A-3 Brewster Buffalo. SBD-3 & 4s used an engine good for 1000hp for take-off and 800hp over 11,000ft in high supercharger gear. You have a plane with about 25% bigger wing than a Wildcat and that weighs around 1000lbs more than a Wildcat (depending on fuel load and other items? if no rear gunner you need to carry ballast) Now maybe (depending on load) you can out turn a Wildcat (briefly) but you can't out run one, you can't outclimb one. You may not be able to out dive one.

I know they were used as fighters at times (or anti-torpedo bomber planes which may not be quite the same thing) but the chances of the SBD against actual fighters flown by equal pilots and without some sort of advantage (height, cloud, fighter/s are concentrating on another target) are pretty slim.

I would concurre with most of that except for the verry last word" slim".
The SBD seems to have been unique among ww2 bomber types in that it had a positive kill ratio.( there may be another one im not aware of) The misquito perhaps?
In my mind at least there's no way to get from a positive kill ratio, mostly against fighters, to saying the SBD had a slim chance against fighters. Even if one wants to knock say 30 or 40 percent off for some kind of inaccuracy such as overclaiming for example, you would still have about a 0.7 to 1 kill ratio. Not outstanding by fighter standards but a long way this side of a plane that had only a slim chance against fighter opposition.
Consider that much of this time the SBD would have been laden with ordinance while it's opposition wasn't and I this becomes even more impressive. Imho.

 

[michael rauls]

Interesting how it has a very storied career as the SBD, but I hardly ever hear anything about the A-24....maybe the Army just didn't implement it as much as the Navy did?
View attachment 508828

Elvis

I also have read that it was used by the free french air force right up until VE day but details on this seem to be hard to come by.

 

[davparlr]

A little side note here, those .30 cal on the SBD were ANM2s, i.e. stingers, specially design for high rate of fire. A dual set up was capable of 2400 rpm, quite some firepower. Famous Japanese pilot Sakai attacked a flight of American planes, thinking they were F4Fs and was surprised to find out they were SBDs. Realizing his mistake too late to avoid, he barely survived the encounter.

 

[fastmongrel]

The SBD seems to have been unique among ww2 bomber types in that it had a positive kill ratio.

Blackburn Skua had a positive kill ratio when operating as a fighter.

 

[michael rauls]

Blackburn Skua had a positive kill ratio when operating as a fighter.

Cool thanks! I thought there might be one or two others out there I was not aware of.

 

[fastmongrel]

I think the Aichi Val also did okay as a fighter but I don't know much about Japanese Naval aircraft

 

[parsifal]

I think the Aichi Val also did okay as a fighter but I don't know much about Japanese Naval aircraft

In the indian ocean the Vals were occasionally used as fighter and enjoyed some success. After the raid on Trincomallee in April, CarDivs 1 and 2 were attacked by a force of 11 Blenheims, losing 7 of their number to a mixed Zero/ Val defending force. One Val was damaged in these attacks. Vals were lightly armed and unarmoured, but from accounts ive read were more manouverable than an SBD. When bombed up and attacked by SBDs acting as fighters which was the usual scenario the Vals were obviously at a disadvantage. Im not aware of any situations where this was the reverse.

 

[CORSNING]

Once again,

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eDPyvyt-MQ

 

[michael rauls]

Once again,

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eDPyvyt-MQ

Thanks for posting that. Really enjoyed it.
Used to watch that show when it was on but never caught that episode.

 

[CORSNING]

OK then,
I just finished doing a complete work up on the SBD-5 & -6,
great stuff. They could not in any sense of the word be considered
front line fighters, but if consideration is given to their roles of
scout/interceptors, then they did their jobs admirably.

 

[michael rauls]

OK then,
I just finished doing a complete work up on the SBD-5 & -6,
great stuff. They could not in any sense of the word be considered
front line fighters, but if consideration is given to their roles of
scout/interceptors, then they did their jobs admirably.

Ive always loved the SBD. My grandfather who, along with my grandmother, largly raised me worked at Douglas all his adult life and the Dauntless was one of the many planes he worked on. I remember being about 6 or 7 and being fascinated by hearing him extole its virtues.
I really soaked that up and it got me started with a general interest in ww2 aviation.

 

[Elvis]

The SBD/A-24 and the B-25...very versatile aircraft.

 

[GrauGeist]

Interesting how it has a very storied career as the SBD, but I hardly ever hear anything about the A-24....maybe the Army just didn't implement it as much as the Navy did?
Elvis

No, unfortunately, the Army didn't use the A-24 to it's fullest abilities.

They did, however, use the A-36 to it's fullest extent, so perhaps the A-24's failures were a lesson learned and that was passed on to the A-36's SOP.

 

[Elvis]

You can't fail if you're not used.
Korea showed just how poor an dive bomber / ground attack plane the P-51 / A-36 turned out to be.


Dean