'Next gen' German bombers with hindsight?

[tomo pauk]

The 'next generation' being the bombers being designed after He 111/Do 17/Ju 88. Or, IOW, what to make instead of the stillborn Ju 288, very problematic He 177 and workmanlike, but unremarkable Do 217. Requirements are the bombload over distance, operating/cruising/max speed, without the reliance to a new shiny engine that might and might nor materialize. Ability to be mass produced is also a must. Defensive armament should be better than on the existing bombers of 1938-40, but don't over-do it, not just because the defensive guns/turrets require a lot of crew members to man them. Both 'classic' and unorthodox layouts work. Piston engines for the starters, later jets or mixed propulsion. Dive bombing is not a must. 2 or 3 or 4 engines, whatever you fancy.

 

[Snautzer01]

How about a ship just designed to carry v-1 ? Long range to upset the short range pesky RAF fighters? Stab in the back kind of thing? Just to spread the defense and increase the cost of maintaining air patrols further in the mainland or further up to north sea. In this scenerio it is not how many v-1 get through but the investment in it to stop them.

 

[SaparotRob]

Steal B-24 plans.

 

[wiking85]

The 'next generation' being the bombers being designed after He 111/Do 17/Ju 88. Or, IOW, what to make instead of the stillborn Ju 288, very problematic He 177 and workmanlike, but unremarkable Do 217. Requirements are the bombload over distance, operating/cruising/max speed, without the reliance to a new shiny engine that might and might nor materialize. Ability to be mass produced is also a must. Defensive armament should be better than on the existing bombers of 1938-40, but don't over-do it, not just because the defensive guns/turrets require a lot of crew members to man them. Both 'classic' and unorthodox layouts work. Piston engines for the starters, later jets or mixed propulsion. Dive bombing is not a must. 2 or 3 or 4 engines, whatever you fancy.

Ju388/488? The He177 would have been fine as a four engine aircraft with 4x db601/5s. Or Jumo 213s.
The Me264 without the intercontinental capabilities would have been great too.

 

[MikeMeech]

How about a ship just designed to carry v-1 ? Long range to upset the short range pesky RAF fighters? Stab in the back kind of thing? Just to spread the defense and increase the cost of maintaining air patrols further in the mainland or further up to north sea. In this scenerio it is not how many v-1 get through but the investment in it to stop them.

Hi
Sounds like a nice juicy target for RAF Coastal Command strike wings, or RN ships and submarines during late 1944 and 1945.

Mike

 

[Just Schmidt]

Hmm, I can't come up with much except using the hindsight to avoid waste of time and materials.

Possibly design a single engine battleground support plane with better survivability than the Ju-87, but perhaps just more Fw 190F's and G's are to be preferred. In the short run I see nothing better than the Do-217, just don't waste timer on the dive bomber requirement. Can it get DB 603 earlier? Can dropping the 222 result in an early more powerfull 211 or significantly speed up the 213?

Maybe work the Ju-88B as soon as it is technically possible, and try to make a short cut to the 388's?

We can consider having Dornier design a push-pull bomber earlier, and from the beginning add an energy fighter role for it.

In the longer perspective, there is nothing wrong with the Ar 234, just realize from the start it need wheels.

It would be nice for Germany to level the factories/cities in GB, and to some extent USSR to the ground, but there is no way Germany can sustain a strategic campaign just nearly as effective as the western allies. And USA is immune in any event. Just don't bother with four engine aircraft. And by having more se ground attack so not to use twins for ground attack, we can build more. But now we need more pilots too...

I'm sorry if this is not very inspired, but the one thing the Germans had too much of when it came to bombers was probably inspiration.

 

[pbehn]

How about a ship just designed to carry v-1 ? Long range to upset the short range pesky RAF fighters? Stab in the back kind of thing? Just to spread the defense and increase the cost of maintaining air patrols further in the mainland or further up to north sea. In this scenerio it is not how many v-1 get through but the investment in it to stop them.

This was done, on Dec 1944 the LW launched 45 V1s from He 111s at Manchester. 35 hit the greater Manchester area which is huge annd involves many surrounding towns like Oldham and Bury. One bomb killed around 35 civilians, another wrecked a cricket pitch (happily the square was untouched and it was all repaired before the cricket season started). An air launched V1 cost more to produce and operate than any damage it caused, if this type of raid had continued it was easy to counter, as it was with air launched raids on London.

Chrismas Eve V1 "Doodlebug" raid on Manchester

Extracted from my Web site .......... On Christmas Eve 1944, a formation of specially configured HE-111 Heinkel bombers (I/KG53 squadron) flying over the North Sea launched 45 V1 Flying Bombs (Doodlebugs) aimed at Manchester 31 of which reached the target area. Fifteen fell on Manchester, the...

ww2aircraft.net

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Jet engines earlier, Arados would have been even more useful once the landing-gear issue is addressed. I think that and the Me-262 -- as an interceptor, not a bomber -- were the only wunderwaffen that could have perhaps changed the war -- assuming they come on line a year earlier.

Even that is a big stretch considering that the Germans had decided to fight three giant powers. You can't fix what elephants do.

 

[nuuumannn]

With hindsight? Oh that's easy... Put the Fw 187 into production as a single-seat long range escort fighter but don't build a Zerstorer, a waste of specification. Introduce a dual role reconnaissance strike aircraft that the Bf 110 can fullfil as it is a good design, but not a great fighter.

The Fw 187 is simply a single-seat fighter, let's not kid ourselves trying to stretch the design beyond reason with wishful thinking. We also want Fw to build the 190, it's a grand aeroplane. We know that at one stage expansion of Fw 191 was questioned because Fw was worried it would impact Fw 189 production, so if the Fw 187 is built, outsourcing has to take place.

In this fantasy the Jumo 222 is not troublesome, so the Ju 288 can go into production, but the B model, not the pre-production A model. It's a good aircraft with promising performance even if it won't be as great as the original manufacturer's ambitious promises.

The He 177 has quite a few airframe issues in reality, these need fixing. A redesign is necessary to overcome these, aside from making a traditional four engined bomber.

Another thing that needs work is German electrics and gun turrets. The turrets Germany fitted to its bombers like the Do 217 were powered in azimuth only, elevation was still done manually, so hope of getting efficient turrets on bombers needs work. Messerschmitt got barbettes to work, but Messerschmitt is one company. The reason why British and US turrets worked is because, apart from Boulton Paul and the Defiant and Bristol, airframers didn't traditionally design the turrets (except pre-war with Vickers and Handley Page designing emplacements with Frazer Nash working gear, but these were not a success).

The Germans loved competition but the firms fought tooth and nail to get contracts by currying favour and by other means. This is a daft system to base a defence industry on during wartime. Rationalisation of the evaluation and selection process by an unbiased organisation. Aircraft companies have to compete, but their work is to be carefully evaluated rather than investment into irrational flights of fancy beyond what the firm is actually capable of producing.

 

[Shortround6]

What the Germans might have had a need for is an updated He 111, or something of that sort.
A close competitor to the Do 217.
Something with a decent sized internal bomb bay.
Something that has decent if not great speed.
Something that can be powered by a pair 1600-1800hp engines, so it can be built in quantity. Four engine bombers are not going to be built in enough numbers.

Jet bombers like the Arado 234 are hard to intercept but they don't have a lot of range and they don't have a high payload and they may not have the best accuracy, unless perhaps at low level and then the fighters can use dive speed to try to catch them. You might need to resort to 4 jet engines to get a plane that is both fast and carries a decent bomb load as the 234 carried it's bombs externally and most speed listings are for a clean aircraft. You also need the jets to show up 1 year (or more) earlier. Germans need a new bomber in 1942 or early 1943, not 1944, by then it is way too late.

 

[tomo pauk]

Something with a decent sized internal bomb bay.
Something that has decent if not great speed.
Something that can be powered by a pair 1600-1800hp engines, so it can be built in quantity. Four engine bombers are not going to be built in enough numbers.

My thoughts exactly.
Keep the 'engine side' of the bomber conservative - ie. we can make a good bomber with engines that are already doing the flight testing, and in case the better engines materialize all the better.

Decent-sized bomb bay was a feature of Ju 288. Even the total size of the bomb bay of the Ju-88 was decent, but it was cut in half due to designer's choice of low-wing layout, thus requiring useful bombs to be carried outside, killing the speed in every day's service.
Roughly the combo between the fuselage of Ju 288 and wing of Ju 88 might've worked, while keeping the fuel+bomb load in check? Or, the German counterpart of A-20 (size- and layout-wise), with proper fuel load, uninterrupted bomb bay and BMW 801s?

How about going much smaller - wing of 350 sq ft? Say, Fockw Wulf makes the metal-clad Ta 154 as a bomber 1st, instead the wooden fighter? With the Jumo 211s, bomb bay, fuel tanks in the wings?

 

[Snautzer01]

Hi
Sounds like a nice juicy target for RAF Coastal Command strike wings, or RN ships and submarines during late 1944 and 1945.

Mike

Mike ship means airplane. Not a floatty on water thing.

 

[Snautzer01]

As most want to build or extent airplanes, take in account the raw material/oil situation. Or is that un limited?

 

[tomo pauk]

As most want to build or extent airplanes, take in account the raw material/oil situation. Or is that un limited?

Nope - more or less a 'zero sum game'. Or, kill off something else to have the aircraft you/we desire in service.

 

[Just Schmidt]

What the Germans might have had a need for is an updated He 111, or something of that sort.
A close competitor to the Do 217.
Something with a decent sized internal bomb bay.
Something that has decent if not great speed.
Something that can be powered by a pair 1600-1800hp engines, so it can be built in quantity. Four engine bombers are not going to be built in enough numbers.

I'm not entirely sure where the Do 217 fall short of this?

Is it its handling that is not satisfactory? I once came across the claim that it felt like there was too much aircraft for the wing area and power available.

 

[Snautzer01]

Nope - more or less a 'zero sum game'. Or, kill off something else to have the aircraft you/we desire in service.

In that case perhaps a staffeln or 3 of he111z with plenty of v-1 under wing from Norway or other far out post to make the opponent put up a stiff resistance. Attack the parts not that well defendend from the coast. No London but other targets or ports, forget channel targets. No doubt they will counter it but the cost will be enormous. Doesnt matter what they hit. The radars are at the western coast. I think the He111Z can launch and run. Stab in the back. It will work for more then 3 months until Bleachey breaks the code again. Untill then sources will be more scattered.

 

[mikemike]

Decent-sized bomb bay was a feature of Ju 288. Even the total size of the bomb bay of the Ju-88 was decent, but it was cut in half due to designer's choice of low-wing layout, thus requiring useful bombs to be carried outside, killing the speed in every day's service.

The low-wing configuration of the Ju 88 was not per se the main culprit for the small length of the bomb bays. The type design chief Gassner and the Junkers chief designer Zindel clashed about this. Zindel wanted bays for larger bombs, but Gassner, supported by RLM "experts" with all their WW1 experience, opted for 50 KG bombs. The forward bomb bay sat between the wing carry-through structures which were pretty substantial kit in high-tensile steel (due to dive-bombing requirements); sizing the bomb bay for 250 kg bombs would have required the distance between the main wing spars to be increased by about 60 cm, with consequences for wing shape and aspect ratio. Not something you could do retrospectively; it might have been possible as part of the original design. In any case, the aft bay could have been lengthened for bigger bombs with little trouble. But the RLM was content with 50 kg bombs, of which 1400 kg, about 3100 pounds, could be carried internally as standard load - quite a substantial load for the time.

 

[tomo pauk]

The low-wing configuration of the Ju 88 was not per se the main culprit for the small length of the bomb bays. The type design chief Gassner and the Junkers chief designer Zindel clashed about this. Zindel wanted bays for larger bombs, but Gassner, supported by RLM "experts" with all their WW1 experience, opted for 50 KG bombs. The forward bomb bay sat between the wing carry-through structures which were pretty substantial kit in high-tensile steel (due to dive-bombing requirements);

Ju 88 was 1st designed as a fast bomber, that was later turned into a dive bomber.
Both Do 217 and Ju 288 were also dive bombers, both being high-wing aircraft. Seems like the RLM experts wanted and gotten the He 111 to carry 250 kg bombs internally.

sizing the bomb bay for 250 kg bombs would have required the distance between the main wing spars to be increased by about 60 cm, with consequences for wing shape and aspect ratio. Not something you could do retrospectively; it might have been possible as part of the original design. In any case, the aft bay could have been lengthened for bigger bombs with little trouble. But the RLM was content with 50 kg bombs, of which 1400 kg, about 3100 pounds, could be carried internally as standard load - quite a substantial load for the time.

I've never suggested the redesign of the Ju 88 to carry big bombs internally, but to have a proper high-wing bomber with a decent bomb bay. Be it the Ju 288 fuselage/Ju 88 wing combo, or having FW to make a bomber that is a Ta-154 lookalike, or perhaps Heinkel making the He 219-shaped A/C as a bomber, powered by BMW 801s, etc.
Lengthening the aft bay on the Ju 88 to carry really big bombs has a problem of CoG with a 1000, 1400, 1800 or 2000 kg bomb that much aft.

 

[wiking85]

Ju 88 was 1st designed as a fast bomber, that was later turned into a dive bomber.
Both Do 217 and Ju 288 were also dive bombers, both being high-wing aircraft. Seems like the RLM experts wanted and gotten the He 111 to carry 250 kg bombs internally.



I've never suggested the redesign of the Ju 88 to carry big bombs internally, but to have a proper high-wing bomber with a decent bomb bay. Be it the Ju 288 fuselage/Ju 88 wing combo, or having FW to make a bomber that is a Ta-154 lookalike, or perhaps Heinkel making the He 219-shaped A/C as a bomber, powered by BMW 801s, etc.
Lengthening the aft bay on the Ju 88 to carry really big bombs has a problem of CoG with a 1000, 1400, 1800 or 2000 kg bomb that much aft.

Really the answer was the Ju288 with the 2000hp engines, but with a streamlined cockpit, two crew, no defensive guns, and limited armor to make it as fast as possible. The bomb bay for that was ideal for what you want. Thing is you cannot use the Ju88 wings on the 288 given the balance issues. In fact from the original prototype 288 they had to increase the wing size (as well as strengthen the landing gear) and it seems the aircraft gained about 1000kg from the original prototype to the last iteration of the 3 man version. Cutting weight by removing defensive guns and 1 crew member, plus making a smaller, more sleek cockpit could offset some of the need to increase the weight of the aircraft, which then gets you performance that is superior to the DH Mosquito of the same period in terms of speed, range, and payload.

 

[tomo pauk]

Really the answer was the Ju288 with the 2000hp engines, but with a streamlined cockpit, two crew, no defensive guns, and limited armor to make it as fast as possible. The bomb bay for that was ideal for what you want.

Germans might've been lacking a 2000 HP engine? Probably the most expedient thing is to indeed use as light as possible the fuselage of the Ju 288 (certainly not beyond crew of 3, with slimline cockpit), minimum guns (no guns + night flying?), and BMW 801s at 1st (= in 1942). Press on with BMW 801E (gotten vs. 801D a much improved S/C and 'internal aerodynamics' for extra ~15% power at altitude; some other details were also different) and DB 603A (reliability in 1943 was bad - chrome plated valves are needed, along with better lubricating system?).

Thing is you cannot use the Ju88 wings on the 288 given the balance issues. In fact from the original prototype 288 they had to increase the wing size (as well as strengthen the landing gear) and it seems the aircraft gained about 1000kg from the original prototype to the last iteration of the 3 man version. Cutting weight by removing defensive guns and 1 crew member, plus making a smaller, more sleek cockpit could offset some of the need to increase the weight of the aircraft, which then gets you performance that is superior to the DH Mosquito of the same period in terms of speed, range, and payload.

Wings of the Ju 88 to be shoehorned on the 288 will certainly require some back-and-forth.
Weight needs to be kept in check, and the dive-bombing requirement will have to wait until the "Ju 88288" works well as a 'level bomber' 1st.