No Spitfire?

[tomo pauk]

A what-if situation emerges where, for this or that reason, Spitfire as we know it (= a fast 1-engined fighter by Supermarine, company's Type 300, conceived in second half of 1930s) never sees the light of the day. What should RAF do, either via the British companies or otherwise, to 'plug the gap' between Hurricane and next-gen fighters that were supposed to materialize as Typhoon/Tornado? Especially in late 1940-early 1943 time frame, when Spitfire was the #1 WAllied fighter. What companies should be favored? More than 1 answer to the situation can be given

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Easy, the RAF should just buy the P-39. Should have replaced the Spit with it anyhow. Far superior airplane, and a good staller.

Too soon?

 

[Capt. Vick]

Here! Here!

 

[pbehn]

Forget Henleys, Battles, Defiants Whirlwinds and any other waste of a Merlin. Forget Peregrins and Vultures and all other engines that aren't a Merlin or Griffon. Produce Hurricanes at the rate they actually were produced in 1940 but much earlier. Expand pilot training, Hawkers were exporting Hurricanes because they could produce them faster than the RAF could accept them. Hire training instructors from anywhere and everywhere. Cooperate with France and any other European nation on pilot training, you can do much more in South of France in winter than in UK. The UK was producing 500 aircraft per month by the middle of 1940, make that by the middle of 1939 and let Goering have at least 100 Hurricanes in every country he plans to invade and over 2000 in total.

 

[tomo pauk]

Thousands of Hurricanes seating on the airfields without radars and integrated air-defense network, no mass of AA guns to cover them, hundreds of them vs. Luftwaffe's thousands = a very expensive loss of the said Hurricanes. Especially in Poland, Denmark, Belgium and Netherlands where also the panzers can reach the airfields in matter of hours.

 

[nuuumannn]

Produce Hurricanes at the rate they actually were produced in 1940 but much earlier.

That's gonna be hard, especially since the facilities to increase production rates simply didn't exist at the time the first order for the type was put out, 15/36 for 600 aircraft - the largest single order for an individual type in British aviation history up to that time. Hawker took out a bank loan in 1936 to facilitate Hurricane production in new facilities, which included Gloster's factory at Hucclecote. The first production Hurricane first flew in 1937, but Hawker production was quick for its time, forty aircraft were completed in the first three months. Hawker's Langley facility didn't open until 1938 and by the end of that year, over 200 had been built. I seriously doubt Hawker could have gotten Hurricane production any faster than what they did, all things considered.

 

[nuuumannn]

Without the Spitfire, Britain would have been seriously under-equipped to have dealt with the Luftwaffe onslaught in 1940. Unless there was another single-seat fighter available instead. British fighter production was extraordinarily efficient throughout the Battle of Britain and that was thanks to Lord Beaverbrook, who was tenacious and threatening and had something of a tyrannical relationship with the aircraft companies. Before the war, British aircraft production was slow and trailed behind that of Germany. Once Beaverbrook got in May 1940, British fighter production overtook German easily by more than 200 aircraft a month more.

 

[buffnut453]

That's gonna be hard, especially since the facilities to increase production rates simply didn't exist at the time the first order for the type was put out, 15/36 for 600 aircraft - the largest single order for an individual type in British aviation history up to that time.

Are you sure that's correct about 600 Hurricanes being the largest order in British aviation history up until that time? In 1918, British factories were churning out about 2,700 aircraft per month, which would mean the various ministries had to place at least 5 new orders every single month if each order was for fewer than 600 airframes.

 

[pbehn]

That's gonna be hard, especially since the facilities to increase production rates simply didn't exist at the time the first order for the type was put out, 15/36 for 600 aircraft - the largest single order for an individual type in British aviation history up to that time. Hawker took out a bank loan in 1936 to facilitate Hurricane production in new facilities, which included Gloster's factory at Hucclecote. The first production Hurricane first flew in 1937, but Hawker production was quick for its time, forty aircraft were completed in the first three months. Hawker's Langley facility didn't open until 1938 and by the end of that year, over 200 had been built. I seriously doubt Hawker could have gotten Hurricane production any faster than what they did, all things considered.

They did it eventually when pushed to do it. Hawkers started production without an order because the air ministry didn't order it. Production was delayed by 6 months to build 200 Henleys. The Spitfire doesn't exist in the what if, so use the people doing Spitfires to build Hurricanes, same with Westland. As per my other post, in the late 30s many were acting as if war wasn't coming, Hawker were producing faster than the RAF could accept. It needs the RAF to massively up its game on pilot training.

 

[Shortround6]

What should RAF do, either via the British companies or otherwise, to 'plug the gap' between Hurricane and next-gen fighters that were supposed to materialize as Typhoon/Tornado?

Whirlwind

Cancel the Lysander for increased production capability.

 

[tomo pauk]

1st step is obviously - more Hurricanes (throw the Gladitor under the bus so Gloster can take part, ditto for Henley).
After that is agreed with Hawker - see with De Havilland what they might offer. Try the Merlin on the Gloster F.5/34 (along with better U/C for next version). Talk with Fokker for the D.XXI with Merlin and retractable U/C.

Whirlwind

Cancel the Lysander for increased production capability.

Yes, Whirlwind does make sense, at least for 1941. And for 1940, if it can be had in quantity early enough.

 

[GrauGeist]

tomo pauk - Don't forget the Boulton Paul P.94 as an option.

 

[pbehn]

Thousands of Hurricanes seating on the airfields without radars and integrated air-defense network, no mass of AA guns to cover them, hundreds of them vs. Luftwaffe's thousands = a very expensive loss of the said Hurricanes. Especially in Poland, Denmark, Belgium and Netherlands where also the panzers can reach the airfields in matter of hours.

The disposition of them is another matter, especially after seeing what happened in Poland, but Poland fought for two weeks with very few good aircraft but good pilots. Belgium was neutral, and Netherlands was an armed neutral country along with Denmark their situation in military terms couldn't succeed but they did fight. Why everyone parked their planes in rows waiting to be shot at is a mystery to me. They should have been hidden, covered in tents with ten times as many tents as aircraft. From Sept 3rd the allies, should have been raiding and bombing inside the German side of the border, shooting anything that moved. By the fall of France and by June in the BoB Goering had lost half his Luftwaffe, if he had lost almost all of it by the fall of France (if France fell) maybe he and others would look differently at invading Russia, since an invasion of Britain couldn't be considered.

 

[tomo pauk]

The disposition of them is another matter, especially after seeing what happened in Poland, but Poland fought for two weeks with very few good aircraft but good pilots. Belgium was neutral, and Netherlands was an armed neutral country along with Denmark their situation in military terms couldn't succeed but they did fight. Why everyone parked their planes in rows waiting to be shot at is a mystery to me. They should have been hidden, covered in tents with ten times as many tents as aircraft. From Sept 3rd the allies, should have been raiding and bombing inside the German side of the border, shooting anything that moved. By the fall of France and by June in the BoB Goering had lost half his Luftwaffe, if he had lost almost all of it by the fall of France (if France fell) maybe he and others would look differently at invading Russia, since an invasion of Britain couldn't be considered.

Hold your horses. Topic of the thread is not 'let's change the tactics and application of air power for everyone', but about suggesting a solution to a problem of not having the Spitfire in service - as it is noted in the post #1 here.

 

[pbehn]

Hold your horses. Topic of the thread is not 'let's change the tactics and application of air power for everyone', but about suggesting a solution to a problem of not having the Spitfire in service - as it is noted in the post #1 here.

I wasn't changing the tactics, Dowding didn't let his planes be caught on the ground and fighter airfields were very hard to find. Since from its design it was known to be a stop gap before better things came along, you need to produce more earlier.

 

[tomo pauk]

I wasn't changing the tactics, Dowding didn't let his planes be caught on the ground and fighter airfields were very hard to find. Since from its design it was known to be a stop gap before better things came along, you need to produce more earlier.

What should be produced more earlier?

 

[pbehn]

What should be produced more earlier?

Hurricanes, Hawkers started producing without an order because the Air Ministry didn't order it, then production was interrupted to make 200 Henleys. For the RAF not to be able to receive planes as fast as they are produced, shows they were not taking it seriously not that it couldn't be done.

 

[tomo pauk]

Hurricanes, Hawkers started producing without an order because the Air Ministry didn't order it, then production was interrupted to make 200 Henleys. For the RAF not to be able to receive planes as fast as they are produced, shows they were not taking it seriously not that it couldn't be done.

Greater production of Hurricanes is a given, until 1941. Limiting factor will still be pilots (not the topic here really, but still).

What do you suggest to be produced between late 1940 and circa early 1943?

 

[pbehn]

Greater production of Hurricanes is a given, until 1941. Limiting factor will still be pilots (not the topic here really, but still).

What do you suggest to be produced between late 1940 and circa early 1943?

That is my next plan, I will have to think about it, I am exhausted building all these Hurricanes ATM.

 

[nuuumannn]

Are you sure that's correct about 600 Hurricanes being the largest order in British aviation history up until that time

Yes, it was the largest single order for an individual aircraft type. Aircraft during the Great War nominally had orders placed with individual firms, such as Sopwith tasking Beardmore with building Pups and Camels, but typical orders rarely exceeded 150 and were on average around 40 to 50 aircraft in each contract. The first mass order for Camels was 200 with the parent firm, following this, however, Camel production was spread over lots of different companies. The biggest orders were around 100 to 150. for example, in very early 1917, Beardmore was given two separate orders for 50 Camels each. Not long after, Sopwith placed contracts of 100 and 131 Ship's Camels with Clayton and Shuttleworth - the former, and Beardmore, the latter. In late 1917, for example, Ruston and Proctor were given a contract to build 6 Camels. These were delivered to the Aircraft Acceptance Parks throughout March, with the last arriving with an AAP in April 1918, this is after building 19 from an order placed in early 1917. Simultaneously, Portholme Aerodrome Ltd was given an order for 21 Camels.

Aircraft companies just didn't have the resources to handle such large orders since they were generally handcrafted at the time. The concepts of massed production lines and jigs simply didn't exist in the Great War.