Admiral Beez
Major
That was my point, positing that Supermarine could not have made the Hurricane.
IMO, RR needs only two engines in WW2; the Merlin and the Derwent. The Griffon would be missed, but the rest can be scrapped.
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That was my point, positing that Supermarine could not have made the Hurricane.Supermarine was a small company it could design the Spitfire but didn't have the people to make it, but in 1936 who did?
IMO, RR needs only two engines in WW2; the Merlin and the Derwent. The Griffon would be missed, but the rest can be scrapped.Vulture development was also paused during the BoB, as was the Peregrine, Exe and Crecy. The Vulture, Peregrine and Exe were cancelled shortly after.
1 Defiant/P.94 showed good production tolerances, flush riveting, no gaps, nice cowling, wing fillets. The advantages of fully covered wheels have more impact than a tail wheel in the breeze (non retractable tail wheel is something that Spitfire had as well). The Defiant/P.94 would have had non of the disadvantages of the Hurricane except a thickish wing but it was at least of advanced NACA type. It had advantages of high tolerance production. The fully covered main wheels probably have as much impact on speed as a thick wings.
Not sure where the conviction about the covered main wheels comes from. my own opinion is that it might vary with the particular aircraft. Curtiss P-40s lost the wheel coverings the P-36 used, Curtiss should have known exactly what the speed loss would have been for their landing gear design/wheel wells and covers. The P-40Qs still had open wheel wells and the one attempt to use it as a race plane still had open wheel wheels. Some planes did benefit from added doors but how much each design did benefit may not be the same.
Local airflow may vary a bit from design to design.
IMO, RR needs only two engines in WW2; the Merlin and the Derwent. The Griffon would be missed, but the rest can be scrapped.
Keep in mind that the P.94 was not going to have a "faired over" cavity in the fuselage, it was to have the fuselage modified to eliminate the turret framing, allowing for a clean line from the cockpit to the empennage.
This would both reduce some weight and clean up any drag penalty that the Defiant's turret base would have created.
I'm a big Whirlwind fan, but the Peregrine is as much a dead-end for Roll Royce as their Vulture, Eagle, Exe and Crecy. It's Merlins (and Meteors for the Army) all the way to VE Day.In 1939-1941 the Whirlwind would have been a very handy aircraft to have, I don't know much about the peregrine but whirly birds booming and zooming He111's with 10-12 nose mounted .303's would have been decisive in the BoB.
I know that was the logic but as it panned out they were going down a lot of blind alleys. The Whirlwind was ordered as a cannon armed fighter, but the Vulture engine was basically two Peregrins, so if the Whirlwind has the power to do the job so has the Tornado and Typhoon, the issue is getting cannons to work in wings, so work on that.View attachment 617889
View attachment 617890
first flight Oct 6th 1939. Design work had started in 1937.
The Griffon would have been looked upon as a 1/2 step, not an ultimate destination.
In 1939 1760 were ordered from Avro and 200 from Cunliffe-Owen. This aircraft and it's sister Typhoon are the dark clouds hanging over any alternative British fighters in 1938-39-40.
Why fool around with 1500-1600hp engines (early Griffon) when you have 2000hp engines on offer.
Why spend time fooling about with a Merlin powered aircraft when the big engines were right around the corner?
The Hurricane wasn't supposed to have any potential, as per S/R post both the Typhoon and Tornado were supposed to replace it and thousands of them were ordered, both types affected by problems of engine supply from the start.My argument in regards to the Hurri and P.94 is you are putting lipstick on a pig, the designs had no growth potential, re-engining them was not going to make them a war winner, no amount of power was going to get you a MkIX spit or P51B.
But this scenario revolves around no Spitfire. Meaning it didn't exist.My argument in regards to the Hurri and P.94 is you are putting lipstick on a pig, the designs had no growth potential, re-engining them was not going to make them a war winner, no amount of power was going to get you a MkIX spit or P51B.
Easy, make more Hurricanes and Whirlwinds whilst expediting (as reasonably possible) the Sabre and Typhoon. I'd skip the Defiant and its possible derivatives and put those Merlins onto more Hurricanes.But this scenario revolves around no Spitfire. Meaning it didn't exist. So what does Britain do in 1940?
I'd have pulled Petter off the Whirlwind and had him design the FAA's single engine, monoplane fighter instead of the Fairey Fulmar
I know that was the logic but as it panned out they were going down a lot of blind alleys. The Whirlwind was ordered as a cannon armed fighter, but the Vulture engine was basically two Peregrins, so if the Whirlwind has the power to do the job so has the Tornado and Typhoon, the issue is getting cannons to work in wings, so work on that.
The swept volume of the Vulture isn't much more than the Griffon, but it has twice as much of almost everything, in terms of war production you will always be able to make and keep in service more Griffons than Vultures.
Because the actual improvement of the P.94 over the Hurricane is rather debatable. Everybody is basing the performance off an estimate.So the P.94 stands as a viable alternative.
Not sure why this is such an issue...
Coupled with the higher rpm allowed by the smaller cylinders means higher power on the same fuel.2,592 cubic inches (42.5L) vs 2,240 cubic inches (36.7L). 15.7% greater capacity and 39% greater piston area. Which means more potential power for the Vulture.
Certainly right. But the Fulmar was a necessity due to lack of alternatives. Petter, if through the lack of Whirlwind is given time and focus he'll put something forward to challenge the P.4/34 and Fulmar's necessity.The Fulmar, as has been said repeatedly, was an interim fighter, based off the P.4/34 light bomber.
I assume Petter, Fairey, Camm, etc, would make to the spec rather than tell the FAA what they need. Though the Westland P.12 Wendover is terrifyingly terrible.And be careful what you ask for, Petter may have decided that what the RN really needed was a single seat Lysander
The Hurricane Mk.II was good for a top speed of 340mph and the Defiant Mk.I (with the Merlin III) was good for 304mph at a comparable altitude.