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Most discussions are about the statistical performance of the Spitfire, which are true and cannot be argued with, it was a better aircraft, it is also true that solely with Spitfire numbers in service in Sept 1939, and May 1940 the UK didn't have an air force or any chance of having one. Despite the numbers sold and sent abroad, lost in training accidents and in France, from the start of the BoB when numbers were equal at 250 each the Hurricane outnumbered the Spitfire. I don't care if people don't agree with a fact, that is their problem, that's the way it is, it was the Hurricane that made the issue about pilot number and quality.I don't think your going to get many agreeing with you here.
There is no stop gap or future, the Hurri is already outclassed, the P.94 will just get all your pilots killed, the Typhoon is not reliable until '43 and is not a high altitude fighter, without the Spit Britain is neutered. Your muscle car is beaten every where, the only thing it excels at is turning huge quantities of fuel into noise.
Then aparently, Britain's only option is to surrender...There is no stop gap or future, the Hurri is already outclassed, the P.94 will just get all your pilots killed, the Typhoon is not reliable until '43 and is not a high altitude fighter, without the Spit Britain is neutered. Your muscle car is beaten every where, the only thing it excels at is turning huge quantities of fuel into noise.
Then aparently, Britain's only option is to surrender...
That's only relevant if we assume the fallacy that one change doesn't ignite others. If there's no Spitfire, what has replaced it? We can't even limit ourselves to known candidates like the Bristol 146, Vickers Venom or Gloster F5/34.There is no stop gap or future, the Hurri is already outclassed...
No Spitfire means Mitchell and all the other British designers are hurriedly sketching new designs to fill Air Ministry Specificafion F.37/34 calling for a "High Speed Monoplane Single Seater Fighter".
Yes, but in this storyline presumably the Air Ministry didn't like what they saw, thus cancelling out specification F.10/38. We don't know why or how the Spitfire doesn't happen, but this is a plausible route.The specification F.37/34 was, essentially, written around the Supermarine Type 300.
IDK, the RAF still needs to fill the Spitfire's need, so I could see another Spec being issued to the aircraft designers.No Spitfire, no F.37/34?
lets just say that not all of Supermarine's post Spitfire projects may have been the best of the bunch.
View attachment 618061
Twin Taurus engines with pusher props.
That's only relevant if we assume the fallacy that one change doesn't ignite others. If there's no Spitfire, what has replaced it? We can't even limit ourselves to known candidates like the Bristol 146 or Gloster F5/34.
Perhaps we need to return to the Spitfire's origins. Were there any other British competitors in the Schneider races?Quite true as we know or can pretty well estimate that none of the real world actual flying prototypes were going to equal the Spitfire, so whatever Spitfire replacement people can come up with for this scenario is a total unknown.
Yes, but it was a fishing expedition to see what Supermarine could come up with, and clearly the Spitfire was miles away from the Type 300. And in this storyline presumably the Air Ministry didn't like what they saw, thus cancelling our specification F.10/38.
The Spitfire did NOT spring from the Schneider racers despite barrels of ink and tons of paper and millions of electrons saying so in poorly researched/thought out articles.Perhaps we need to return to the Spitfire's origins. Were there any other British competitors in the Schneider races?
And the Defiant II with the same engine as the Hurricane II could not break 320mph.
The Defiant I was 10-14mph slower than a Hurricane I with the same engine.
Getting 10-20mph by getting rid of the turret might be quite possible. But that only gets you to Hurricane performance, not better than Hurricane.
The Spit was roughly 30-35mph faster than the Hurricane with equivalent engines.
Can the single seat Defiant even split the difference?
If not.........why bother.
Yes, but in this storyline presumably the Air Ministry didn't like what they saw, thus cancelling out specification F.10/38. We don't know why or how the Spitfire doesn't happen, but this is a plausible route.IDK, the RAF still needs to fill the Spitfire's need, so I could see another Spec being issued to the aircraft designers.
Perhaps we need to return to the Spitfire's origins. Were there any other British competitors in the Schneider races?
And the Defiant II with the same engine as the Hurricane II could not break 320mph.
To me it's amazing we believe in the absence of the Spitfire that a modified Defiant is the best Britain can do.View attachment 618038
Just using internet sources Boulton and Paul was estimating the P.94 speed as 360mph with the Merlin XII (single stage single speed) and 364 with the Merlin XX (two speed engine)
I would suggest 10mph be knocked of for the armoured wind screen, IFF aerial and mirror that cost Spitfire Mk.II over 5mph compared to the Mk.I
So we have a 347-350 mph P.94 with a Merlin XII versus a 357mph Spitfire II with the same engine. That 7 mph represents 2.0% speed difference equal to the P.94 having 6% more drag.
Assuming the fuselages are equal it means the P.94 wing has 18% more drag. Spitfires more raked windscreen and better filleting has less drag but fully covered wheels make a big difference in favour of P.94 There is less wetted area in the P.94 fuselage as the thicker wing accommodates more equipment. The rear variable area ejector flap on the belly radiator can be seen. It seems to have improved and changed on Defiant II.
Note: the dorsal turret of the Lancaster cost it 12mph even when spread across 4 merlins, while a Lancaster is not Defiant it does give an indication of the serious impact of the big dorsal turret. That's a 4% cut in speed equal to about 12% cut in power ie worth 440hp across the 4 Merlins.
Below I will calculate an estimate of the power the Bouton and Paul Turret would absorb if its drag were added to a 360mph Spitifre II
The equations I will use are F=1/2.Cd.A.p.v^2 where F = drag force, p = air density, A = frontal area.
and Power = Force x Velocity. P=F.v where drag F = 0.5 x Cd.A.p.v^2 which gives:
P = 0.5 x Cd.A.p.v^3 (P = Power in kw, p = air density in kg/cubic m, which is 1.2kg/cubic meter at sea level or 0.6 at 20,000ft)
Lets calculate the Cd.A of the P.94 cockpit and its razorback. I estimate an windscreen area of 0.5m x 0.5m = 0.25sqm. I estimate an Cd of 0.15. (A perfect circular streamline is 0.05, a thin symmetrical wing 0.04, Fatman Nagasaki bomb teardrop about 0.15).
So Cd.A = 0.0375 (from 0.25 x 0.15)
Lets calculate the Cd.A of the Defiant Cockpit/Turret combo. I estimate an area of 0.75 x 0.6m = 0.40m. I estimate a Cd of 0.5. (A sphere is between 0.48 and 0.6, a half sphere flat face forward is about 0.5, a cylinder flat face forward is nearly 1) Its hard to get a Cd under 0.5 for a circular/spherical object because of suction on the back and turbulence. A sharp cut off is better. Note 0.6m width barely allows a human to fit between gun breeches. (assuming 75cm/28 inch turret ring)
So Cd.A = 0.20 (from 0.40 x 0.5)
The difference is about Cd.A of 0.1625.
If the Spitfire had the extra drag of the Defiant's turret at 360mph/160ms @ 20,000ft it would need 200kW = or about 250kW assuming 80% prop efficiency. That's 340hp, about 37% more than the 900 hp Merlin XII could provide at that altitude. Using a cube root law would produce a 13% speed reduction of the Spitfire i.e. 314mph.
Likewise the Defiant II at 315mph/140m/s @ 20,000ft the removal of the turret reduces power demand by 134kW which is 167kW assuming 80% prop efficiency or 227hp so the aircraft can operate at 670hp instead of 900hp and that 227hp 33% increase in horsepower over 670mph would raise speed by 10% i.e. 346mph.
So the Boulton and Paul Estimates are Plausible.
My educated guess is that the P.94 with Merlin XII with 12 guns, IFF aerial, windscreen armour, mirror would be about 10-12 mph slower than a Spitfire III so 345-347 mph instead of 357.
It certainly wont be below 340mph, which is a lot fast than a Hurricane with the Merlin XX.
The p.94 aircraft would gracefully handle a Merlin 60, Griffon, Sabre or Vulture engine and would handle carrier operations (tough undercarriage, thick wing, good visibility) and could handle longer ranges if gun space were converted to fuel space.
Note If I use a Cd.A difference of 0.14 instead of 0.1625 the Spitfire drops to 325mph and the defiant increases to 343mph.
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View attachment 618190View attachment 618038View attachment 618110View attachment 618190
To me it's amazing we believe in the absence of the Spitfire that a modified Defiant is the best Britain can do.
Boulton and Paul P.103B naval fighter (Centaurus)I'm a big Whirlwind fan, but the Peregrine is as much a dead-end for Roll Royce as their Vulture, Eagle, Exe and Crecy. It's Merlins (and Meteors for the Army) all the way to VE Day.
I'd have pulled Petter off the Whirlwind and had him design the FAA's single engine, monoplane fighter instead of the Fairey Fulmar. Ideally a single seater if the FAA and AM can be strong armed to abandon the two seater notion. Essentially an early, smaller Merlin-powered version of Petter's Westland Wyvern.