Thumpalumpacus
Major
Again, it's a matter of whether that can be converted to a Seafire in time to make a splash.
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To kill the Spitfire we need to have the Air Ministry reject Mitchell's design before the prototype is viewed in early 1936. Otherwise the AM would never have rejected it, no one would, look at this thing. This should give Mitchell the years he needs to get the Seafire made.
A RAF rejection in early 1936 should give Supermarine the years they need to get the design sufficiently modified into the Seafire.Again, it's a matter of whether that can be converted to a Seafire in time to make a splash.
A RAF rejection in early 1936 should give Mitchell the years he needs to get the design sufficiently modifed into the Seafire.
These mods aren't easy though, likely needing a different wing design, folding wings, larger flaps, larger rudder, higher pilot seat, wider undercarriage, increased internal fuel, etc... We need RJ Mitchell to get Supermarine onto the right track before he's dead in June 1937. Joe Smith will need to take the Seafire to fruition.
The early adoption of the truly navalized Seafire will kill off any talk of 2-seaters.
The Hurricane alone, combined with radar, and likely a greater number of Whirlwinds will win the Battle of Britain. However, I don't really see this thread as focused on the BoB. More Hurricanes may also free up some for Malaya and India. As essential as we see it, the RAF can make do with the Hurricane until the Typhoon and Tempest enter service.I'm just not sure it could be done in time for BoB, which was the crossfire hurricane for the UK. What good would Seafires aboard carriers have done for that crucial battle if they were out at sea -- or still being debugged? The development window in the OTL is pretty small, I think.
The Hurricane alone, combined with radar will win the Battle of Britain. However, I don't really see this thread as focused on the BoB. More Hurricanes may also free up some for Malaya and India.
As for the Seafire, as long as Supermarine has it sorted and in production by late 1940 or early 1941 we're all set to clear the skies over the MTO.
Supermarine is bum-idle otherwise, beyond Shagbats and Otters their drawing boards are blank. Even the mother company Vickers isn't doing much beyond finishing Wellesley production and launching the Wellington. If they don't put something forward, Vickers-Supermarine risks the trio of going bankrupt, becoming a contract manufacturer for other makes, or being acquired.That's the tall ask, in my view -- getting it ready in that time-frame. I think had the Spit not been selected by the RAF in 37, doubling down on a naval version might have looked pretty risky to Supermarine.
True, especially with the Merlins, single-stage superchargers and propellers of the mid to late 1930s. But we need only match the Grumman F3F, Mitsubishi A5M and Macchi C.200 to remain competitive until higher power Merlins, multistage superchargers and VP props make the Seafire a killer. The lighter, smaller and sleeker Seafire has to be better than the Fulmar using the same engine, so that's somewhere to begin.Seafires, with the reduced performance of carrier fighters of that era given weight/power issues, probably wouldn't have been as competitive as a regular Spit anyway.
Supermarine is bum-idle otherwise, beyond Shagbats and Otters their drawing boards are blank. Even the mother company Vickers isn't doing much beyond finishing Wellesley production and launching the Wellington.
If they don't put something forward, Vickers-Supermarine risks the trio of going bankrupt, becoming a contract manufacturer for other makes, or being acquired.
True, especially with the Merlins, single-stage superchargers and propellers of the mid to late 1930s. But we need only match the Grumman F3F, Mitsubishi A5M and Macchi C.200 to remain competitive until higher power Merlins, multistage superchargers and VP props make the Seafire a killer. The lighter, smaller and sleeker Seafire has to be better than the Fulmar using the same engine, so that's somewhere to begin.
That is because there were a lot more Hurricanes. Spitfires did slightly better on per 100 planes basis. Spitfires also lasted a bit longer before being shot down on average. Which aso means their pilots lasted a bit longer. An important point when the shortage of pilots was greater than a shortage of airframes.and while yes, the Hurri had more kills in that battle,
but we need only match the Grumman F3F, Mitsubishi A5M and Macchi C.200 to remain competitive until higher power Merlins, multistage superchargers and VP props make the Seafire a killer.
That is because there were a lot more Hurricanes. Spitfires did slightly better on per 100 planes basis. Spitfires also lasted a bit longer before being shot down on average. Which aso means their pilots lasted a bit longer. An important point when the shortage of pilots was greater than a shortage of airframes.
Mitchell wasn't going to let the lessons of the S6.b go wasted,
well, they did design and build the Supermarine 224.
View attachment 616352
several years AFTER the S.6b.
Now here is where reality hits theory. RAF requested a landing speed of 50mph. The 224 failed by 10mph despite having a wing almost the size of the one on P-47.
The requirement also said the plane had to be suitable for "night fighting" which in the early 30s simply meant the plane had to be able to take-off and land at night without too high a risk of crashing. Being able to execute a 5-6 G turn several times without the wings folding up was also considered desirable
BTW Float planes had, compared to land planes, an almost unlimited length runway.
Being able to see out of the plane (or at least see where the plane was going) was also considered desirable for a fighter.
View attachment 616353
View attachment 616354
Our only hope of stopping the Spitfire is to kill off Mitchell by the late 1920s before he can design the Schneider Trophy contestants.
Streamlining the engine is no great trick, streamlining the cooling system is a very great trick indeed.
The 224 also used (or tried) evaporative cooling with condenser panels in the wings instead of a normal radiator. This was at the Air Ministries insistence. NOT any of the airframe makers and not even at RRs insistence.
The Spit was one of the first (if not the first) plane to attempt to use the Meredith effect. The Meredith effect is not an on/off switch. different radiator/duct designs can have different efficiency from one another in how well the effect works. The Spit got lower cooling drag than the Hurricane but not anywhere near as good as the P-51.
FW 189 was one of the competitors. for the Germans
Not very good.
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