Officers & Enlisted as Aircrew

[tyrodtom]

There were members of my WOC company who were x enlisted men,( Me for instance) once they made it through flight school were Warrant Officers.
Then got commissioned as officers during their first or 2nd tour , one retired as a Lt. Col.
And that can still be done today.

During my 8 years in the USAF and Army I met several officers who had started as enlisted men.
Most advanced from being very proficient in their fields, though a few were as the result of battlefield promotions.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

There were members of my WOC company who were x enlisted men,( Me for instance) once they made it through flight school were Warrant Officers.
Then got commissioned as officers during their first or 2nd tour , one retired as a Lt. Col.
And that can still be done today.

During my 8 years in the USAF and Army I met several officers who had started as enlisted men.
Most advanced from being very proficient in their fields, though a few were as the result of battlefield promotions.

Most WO in the army start out as enlisted.

 

[Reluctant Poster]

That's because many of these folks were given field commissions. There were also many who maintained their rank once they were able to achieve a full commission. Chuck Yeager came up though the enlisted ranks IIRC.

I believe the mission and the manning requirements should determine if a pilot is an officer or not. For example there is no reason why you need an officer to fly a smaller transport or liaison aircraft. WW2 showed that a college education doesn't mean one is capable of flying an aircraft in combat and I believe the same holds true today as do some other folks. Air Force May Approve Enlisted Pilots for First Time in 75 Years

I totally agree. My original post was in reference to things as they were in the 20's and 30's. I believe most armed forces have become less class conscious since then. Enlisted men nowadays have a much better chance of progressing to higher ranks.

 

[MIflyer]

One of our top ETO fighter leaders - I think it was Blakeslee - led the first mass flight of jet fighters across the Atlantic after WWII. I think it was F-84's with air refueling capability.

Upon arriving in Great Britain someone decided that since Churchill was coming out to see them they should do a pass in review. They had no idea how to do that, all having been brought into the service under urgent wartime conditions. But they gave it a try, and afterwards Churchill said that he did not understand how the commander could lead his men all the way accross the ocean and not be able to lead them around a parade ground. Those kind of "officer skills" were of no use in beating the Luftwaffe, but even today unqualified people infer otherwise.

 

[tyrodtom]

Most WO in the army start out as enlisted.

I meant they were prior service enlisted men, not just newly enlisted for the WOC program.
We had a few that were prior service Marines, Navy, even a master sgt looking to fly .

 

[tyrodtom]

One of our top ETO fighter leaders - I think it was Blakeslee - led the first mass flight of jet fighters across the Atlantic after WWII. I think it was F-84's with air refueling capability.

Upon arriving in Great Britain someone decided that since Churchill was coming out to see them they should do a pass in review. They had no idea how to do that, all having been brought into the service under urgent wartime conditions. But they gave it a try, and afterwards Churchill said that he did not understand how the commander could lead his men all the way accross the ocean and not be able to lead them around a parade ground. Those kind of "officer skills" were of no use in beating the Luftwaffe, but even today unqualified people infer otherwise.

Even in WW2 flight training they would have at least had a " pass in review " parade upon graduation.
They probably just didn't put a lot of time or emphasize on it after flight school, got out of touch with the finer points of parade ground spit and polish.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I meant they were prior service enlisted men, not just newly enlisted for the WOC program.
We had a few that were prior service Marines, Navy, even a master sgt looking to fly .

I know what you meant, that is what I meant as well. Most Warrants served as enlisted, and then put in packet to become Warrant Officers. They then go to WOCS (as you obviously know... ).

Take me flight company (a squadron in the Army) for instance. Minus the Company Commander and two Platoon Leaders, all pilots were Warrant Officers. Out of 20+ Warrants, only one was not a prior enlisted. He went from HS to Flight School. The rest were prior infantry, artillery or aviation and usually E-4 to E-6. They then became Warrant Officer pilots.

In the Army you want to be a Warrant if you a pilot. Commissioned Officers do not fly as much, and usually end up on someones staff.

 

[MIflyer]

Blakeslee did not go through USAAF flight school but went to Canada and then to an RAF Eagle Squadron. He never had to deal with all of that marching stuff. For ceremonies in England all they had to do was line up.

Back at VAFB when we had our turn at standing retreat, we would form up and practice a bit in the parking lot before marching around the building to salute the flag as it was lowered. One day as we stood there silently awaiting the music, a crow landed on a power line and looked up and down the ranks, seemingly bewildered. When the music started playing he began to caw loudly. It was very hard not to laugh.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Ahhh... formation stories, such fun.

When I first went into the naval reserves I was in a carrier augmentation unit. About 2 minutes before formation I called up to the duty office and had this dingbat page "Seaman Gulper." We got the bell to fall in and right as the command Master Chief started making announcements the PA opened up - "Seaman Gulper, Seaman Gulper, call the duty office, Seaman Gulper, Seaman Gulper, call the duty office please." Needless to say everyone lost it, especially the skipper!

 

[tyrodtom]

I know what you meant, that is what I meant as well. Most Warrants served as enlisted, and then put in packet to become Warrant Officers. They then go to WOCS (as you obviously know... ).

Take me flight company (a squadron in the Army) for instance. Minus the Company Commander and two Platoon Leaders, all pilots were Warrant Officers. Out of 20+ Warrants, only one was not a prior enlisted. He went from HS to Flight School. The rest were prior infantry, artillery or aviation and usually E-4 to E-6. They then became Warrant Officer pilots.

In the Army you want to be a Warrant if you a pilot. Commissioned Officers do not fly as much, and usually end up on someones staff.

In the early 70's it was the other way. Maybe 90% were new enlistees straight from basic to WOC flight training.
Since I'd been out of the USAF for more than 6 months, I had to take Army basic training too, as a PFC.

 

[Glider]

Nothing to do with flying and I have no idea what the percentage is today. However back in the 1970's, approximately a third of all the officers joined the Royal Navy as seamen, which I thought was a pretty good number

 

[Zipper730]

In WWII I think the RAF was unique in that it had Officer Observers.

Okay, so that was just an RAF thing only?

Of course at Midway the USN figured out it needed to provide some naval officers as observers on USAAF B-17's, because

I never heard anything to suggest that the USAAF had USN observers onboard their aircraft.

Not sure I buy that argument entirely, and certainly not across all nations. WW1 proved that being a gentleman did not necessarily make that person an effective leader. Also, air forces tended to demand higher technical expertise, which demanded men who tended to be more independently-minded.

That could go either way: Gentleman or not, one must fly the plane right; technical expertise and independent mindedness seems to favor college-educated officers.

The RFC/RAF experience during WW1 showed that even relatively poorly-educated men could succeed if they had sufficient technical acumen and could "think in 3D".

That's what I was kind of getting at. I could understand why, for bombers, they would want an officer in charge of the plane, because you got a guy in command of several men, but for piloting in general, I see no reason why you'd require officers to fly a plane. What matters is that they have the technical skills and good spatial orientation.

That's because many of these folks were given field commissions. There were also many who maintained their rank once they were able to achieve a full commission. Chuck Yeager came up though the enlisted ranks IIRC.

I think that makes sense. I don't see a problem with a greater access to the officer ranks, for the following reasons

1. Army & Naval Aviation
   • Squadron and Air Group commanders are, by necessity, officers.
2. Independent Air Forces
   • The whole idea was that aviation be controlled by pilots: That would require the top guys, from Squadron Commander to Chief of Staff to be pilots.

 

[Reluctant Poster]

Okay, so that was just an RAF thing only?
I never heard anything to suggest that the USAAF had USN observers onboard their aircraft.

That could go either way: Gentleman or not, one must fly the plane right; technical expertise and independent mindedness seems to favor college-educated officers.
That's what I was kind of getting at. I could understand why, for bombers, they would want an officer in charge of the plane, because you got a guy in command of several men, but for piloting in general, I see no reason why you'd require officers to fly a plane. What matters is that they have the technical skills and good spatial orientation.

I think that makes sense. I don't see a problem with a greater access to the officer ranks, for the following reasons

1. Army & Naval Aviation
   • Squadron and Air Group commanders are, by necessity, officers.
2. Independent Air Forces
   • The whole idea was that aviation be controlled by pilots: That would require the top guys, from Squadron Commander to Chief of Staff to be pilots.

The RAF used sergeant pilots for bombers
Arthur Louis Aaron - Wikipedia

 

[FLYBOYJ]

The RAF used sergeant pilots for bombers
Arthur Louis Aaron - Wikipedia

And I believe most if not all RAF heavies had a single pilot. These young (and very skilled and brave) NCO pilots are the cornerstone of the NCO/ Officer pilot qualification argument.

 

[tyrodtom]

That could go either way: Gentleman or not, one must fly the plane right; technical expertise and independent mindedness seems to favor college-educated officers.

In my experience in the military exactly the opposite was true.
The more college they had the more likely they would stick to the book way of doing anything, and the harder they would resist any other method.
Give me a officer that come up through the ranks any day over one fresh out of West Point.

 

[MIflyer]

Look at Miracle At Midway for the USN observers aboard the B-17's. That is what led to the PB4Y-1 and PB4Y-2.

Gene Roddenberry was transferred from the USAAF to the USN due to his extensive experience at flying heavy bombers over the ocean, after the Navy realized at Midway the superiority of B-17's and B-24's over PBY's in high threat environments. He had been a navigator on Boeing 314's before the war.

 

[buffnut453]

That could go either way: Gentleman or not, one must fly the plane right; technical expertise and independent mindedness seems to favor college-educated officers.

Depends what they studied. A degree in ancient Greek literature isn't going to help with the technical aspects of flying. The Great War marked a fundamental change in the roles traditionally assigned by social norms. A relatively poor, and poorly educated, man who could maintain a new-fangled motor car was much better suited to the technological demands of modern warfare than any university graduate with a degree in Latin literature. That need for technical skills placed a high demand on poorly-educated but technically skilled men and, hence, they had a more important military function than was the case in previous wars where they would have joined the rest of the proletariat as cannon fodder.

Also, for Britain, the sheer scale of casualties led to more officers being commissioned from the ranks. This was particarly true in 1917-1918 because, put simply, there weren't enough college-educated.gentlemen to fill that traditional leadership role. Thus Britain was forced to commission more from the ranks but, equally, those selected.fpr commissioning had already shown leadership ability during enlisted service.

 

[Zipper730]

Depends what they studied.

Good point...

 

[MIflyer]

I recall a certain USAF general officer and fighter pilot that thought you should not have Air Force officers manning consoles at launch control centers but rather enlisted people manning them with a few officers moving among them and providing supervision. This was simple bigotry against officers who did not fly airplanes but had specialzied technical skills that were required for certain jobs. It was if you proposed a general practicioner checking in occasionally on nurses who were performing surgical procedures. In 1998-99 the USAF found out just how disastrous it was to even move slightly toward that kind of a concept; the losses ran into the $billions.