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109E-3
- 26,5-29sec at 1.26 ata (The supercharger seemed to have malfunctioned at low level, which was very important for these tests made at 1000m. German specs give 18.92 sec for a sustained turn at SL for the Emil, at 5 min rating, w/o using the 1-min special low-alt augmented rating.)
RAE test pilots said it was almost impossible to pull the 109 into a hard enough turn to black out, due to the heavy stick forces required.
Basically, even though it might be shown on paper that the 109 could pull +7G, in real life it would not happen, the pilot would not be able to apply enough stick force.
As Soren mentioned in another thread, if the 109 had had a different control system, it would have been a much more dangerous opponent.
Bill,
Regarding the Clmax, the only thing which really could change this even slightly would be aeroelasticity, but I highly doubt it had even a 1% effect on the Clmax, esp. on a slatted wing.
Not true - clmax is an optimim figure for a clean wing, usually 2-d, with no regard for AR or other 3-D considerations and certainly not for wing body/prop system interactions..
Having the Clmax of both a/c in clean configuration gives us a pretty perfect idea of how well each a/c turns at speed.
True to a degree - see below
As for the Cd0 figures, the 109's is derived from full scale tests of a production a/c.
Thsat still would be Cd0 for one and only one velocity
Not the case Claidemore. The normal pilot could pull full elevator deflection in the Bf-109 even at 750 km/h, but it required two hands on the stick. (Normally you just have one hand on the stick, the other controls the throttle etc etc..) So the pilot was indeed capable of pulling the Bf-109 into a quick 7 G turn if he really wished to do so, and many did, however it wasn't as fingertip easy an affair as in an a/c like the Spitfire.
The main improvement would be on roll rate at high speeds Claidemore, that's what I was getting at, cause the 109 really lacked this. A full performance turn could be initiated at any speed up until the max permissable dive speed IF two hands were used, bu roll rate was another issue.
The Spitfire beats them both however,
Soren, how do you validate ClMax in a max turn for the 109, and/or prove (not postulate) that the Clmax in the max turn at max AoA is the same as the Clmax for level flight stall?
What would be more interesting is to present the models you posed to each other above - and derive the turn rate/bank angle - which should agree closely with the flight test results
Assuming the model is correct to the physics...
Not true - clmax is an optimim figure for a clean wing, usually 2-d, with no regard for AR or other 3-D considerations and certainly not for wing body/prop system interactions
drgondog said:Thsat still would be Cd0 for one and only one velocity
VG-33 said:I think it will be hard to explain that to someone like soren since he even doesn't know that AoA for the Clmax is not the same than AoA for the best ToT Clman.
A break, what for? Since your'e such a big scientist you will prove with no efforts thant j'm wrong.Oh give me a break VG-33, you're the one who's in deep water my friend, not me. It's amazing you can't even see that yet
What do you mean by close to or at Clmax?A max performance turn is carried out at or close to the Clmax of the a/c at full power to achieve the smallest turn radius and highest turn rate.
VG - 33
A break, what for? Since your'e such a big scientist you will prove with no efforts thant j'm wrong.
It seems you need to learn to speak english. Give me a break = stop acting stupid
What do you mean by close to or at Clmax?
What do you think I mean ?
"A disadvantage to some degree?" Sorry but if you need two hands to fly an aircraft, you're loosing the ability to effectively bank and thus complete coordinated turns. This was a problem in the MiG-15 and 21and is a MAJOR disadvantage.The Bf-109 needed two hands for aggressive maneuvering at above 500 km/h, but with this full performance turns could also be made. That two hands were needed however was a disadvantage to some degree, that I can agree with.